AT LONG LAST, SEMINAR REVIEWS

About this Entry
Posted by: garyfong1 Original: 1/9/2011 8:56 PM Views: 4009 Comments: 31 eProps: 26 Read Comments Post a Comment Back to Your Xanga Site

Who gave the eProps?
2 eProps from: Rgoldstein jeffjochum stacyreeves mattradlinski ATXphotog chrisfawkes katie_fulton socalshooter shotshot SerenaFF nikonis CameraTalk spinglijuan

Sunday, January 09, 2011

OK this post is long, so before I make you read all of this, (and it's going to be revealing), I would like to tell you that there are excellent instructors in the field. Joe Buissink, phenomenal. Denis Reggie, same. Robert Evans - cutting edge and sharp. Bob Davis, fantastic with lighting. Mike Colon, I haven't heard speak but his images are amazing and he has tremendous skill. Kenny Kim, I haven't heard speak either, but I know he's a person that you can trust. There are many that I would like to list, but this would take a while, and this would only be my own opinion. What doesn't work for me may be great for you. And this is why I have been DYING for somebody/thing to POST REVIEWS of workshops and seminars so that the buyer can be informed.

If there was a place to post reviews, and discuss people's experience with photographic instructors, well that would protect everybody. How did I get so caught up in this drama when my world is all about camera stores and retail trade? Facebook.

I was on Facebook and someone IM'd me (I honestly don't remember who this was, there are many people that IM me) and said that she was so stressed because she went to Scarlett Lillian's first workshop and was devastated because she had paid some large amount to go to the workshop, and not only didn't learn a thing, but was subjected to a disorganized mess of fluff. Her husband was just raging about how it would take them a year and a half to pay off the credit card, and both of them felt that it would be career-changing for her to go to the workshop. Right about this time, one of the workshop attendees named Leann did this post which detailed Scarlett's workshop. And it caused a stir that still hasn't gone away, in fact it's only gotten worse.

In all fairness to Scarlett, this was her first workshop, and I have not seen her attempt it again. Also, what Scarlett accomplished was to brand herself using the blogo/twittersphere into a flash-point celebrity. And that was notable, and an indication of a new hyper-speed movement in photography. As a novice photographer, she was phenomenal at positioning because she became famous so fast. And it could've stayed there had the buying public not OVERREACTED to the experience of being at her workshop. You see, when things get on the discussion boards on Facebook or blogs, etc. things get crazy fast.

Many of you have seen my pot-stirring feeder comments on my Facebook page. As you know, I put these questions out on purpose to get people to show how hot they can get on topics that have no definitive answer. One example question would be, "what is more truthful, faith or science?" In an instant, I get IM's where people say "I'm popping popcorn" - they're waiting for the dependable fireworks. And both sides, while shouting, look unreasonable. And nobody then believes anybody. This is why I am a fan of ratings.

Ratings are what made eBay. Amazon. Tripadvisor. Ratings do two things: 1) it makes the vendor DELIVER. (great customer service, followup etc to protect their approval ratings). 2) it protects the unsuspecting consumer. And until now this has been missing from the budding (rapidly) industry of professional photography workshops.

Nobody is unaffected by poor quality instruction at a high cost. Every WPPI I go to lately (and I've been to 26 of them) the chorus is in unison - the speakers pretty much sucked. And the reason a large part of this occurs is because at WPPI, to get a platform, you need to have a corporate sponsor. WPPI does not pay its speakers, and requires that a speaker have a sponsor for the big programs. So if you see a big logo on the convention brochure, expect a time-and-attention-consuming pitch on the sponsor's products. GARY FONG INC does not sponsor speaker's programs, other than my own, and of course I'm the inventor of my products so my pitch is intimate and real. I've seen photographers give programs for products they don't even use that much, in fact the latest trending direction is photographers who don't really shoot at all, and yet pitch how they "use" the products in their gearbags.

Lately, I've become an unwilling referee/advocate for photographers unhappy with other speakers. I contributed a forward for a speaker's book, because at the time, he was a friend, and I was his confidante (spent so much time guiding and assisting with matters such as monetizing a web presence, assisting with book publishing, how or why or what to invest in gold or the stock market, what to do on a book deal, etc. - hours of guidance.) All I wanted was for him to be successful because I believed in him.

Then came me in the middle. Broken-hearted photographers came to me because I recommended him in the forward of the book - "can you please help me Gary?" I've spent this money and I feel stupid because he won't give me my money back but I'm getting nothing from the consulting or founder's club thing or whatnot. And then to know that this person is not really shooting of any note, completely struggling financially to an alarming degree, the definition of a wipeout in the success category, yet proclaiming to offer a short cut to the big pie-in-the-sky success of the rockstar bigtime of wedding photography.

A caring word of warning from a place of love and concern - the bigtime, big bucks of wedding photography are long gone. With great referrals, you can do ok, but even the best of the best of the best aren't making a fortune anymore. The market has changed, and certainly shitty bullshit workshops on business success, strategies, converting an artist to a businessperson, goal-setting crap is just ridiculous. If a workshop says anything about business success or how to make your business boom, I'd go if it were free. But I'd bring my iPhone just in case so you can listen to music or tweet or go onto Facebook. Or go immediately to Fisheye Connect to score the instructor in a rating system.

Fisheye Connect pretty much does all of the handling of seminar scheduling and fee collection, etc. these days. It seems all of the seminar speakers go through Fisheye connect. And after reading Jeff Jochum's post, where he said "... Today, I did something I haven't done in a long time – I invested in a company I didn't start. That company is Fisheye Connect." And he said that he was acting Chief Marketing Officer and so it sounded like he had invested money, and that it was his baby. Among the executives and people in the photo industry, whenever the name F/E/C came up, they would say, "oh you mean Jeff's company?"

I have worked with Jeff briefly when he was VP/Marketing of Pictage. He was very passionate and understood the importance of community-building and social networking. Jeff nicely put together Pictage user groups, and later, SmugMug's user groups. As a cheerleader and fan of the industry, Jeff made some good moves that was like a big group hug. Being a wedding photographer can be lonely, and Jeff created get-togethers that really resonated in that time, and continues today in some form.

So when I spoke to Kristy Dickerson (founder, CEO and 100% owner of FEC) for the first time, of course I said something like, "Oh, you work for Jeff" and boy did she get mad. I was like, why are you mad? It's on his blog. Jeff's blog post didn't really mention much of Kristy, more of the FEC concept and so pretty much everybody thought it was Jeff's baby. Kristy made it clear that Jeff was never involved, that he was paid a consulting fee, and shortly after that, he departed for another project. Only thing was Jeff never set the record straight, but he has now as he's removed that post from his blog.

Kristy asked me to advise FEC and I'm pleased to do so as explained in this announcement. I've been just hoping that someone, somewhere would put up a rating system, and a discussion forum to centralize this budding industry of workshops and seminars WITH REVIEWS. Kristy has informed me that the programming is nearly done, that they've already collected a lot of reviews and that her programmers are incorporating a discussion forum.

So imagine this. You hear about a workshop. You go to fisheyeconnect. You read the speaker's reviews and discussions about them. Much like rottentomatoes.com, tripadvisor etc. And then you choose based on the reviews of bona-fide people who have gone to the workshop.

This will help do two things that are badly needed: 1) knowing that workshops are going to be "rated" will raise the quality of education knowing that if it blows, they'll get a publicly published thumbs-down and 2) this will protect the unsuspecting customer from being ripped off, which I am afraid is happening too much right now.

Posted 1/9/2011 8:56 PM - 4009 Views - 26 eProps - 31 comments

recommend
recs0
email
sent0
like

Give eProps or Post a Comment

31 Comments

browse comments: « first | ‹ prev

@stacyreeves -

I have to disagree, Stacy. The "business expert photographer" is an oxymoron, and anyone selling a workshop on how to "achieve financial success" and "wealth" in photography is either dishonest or clueless.

Why?

Smart businesspeople like a business that:

1) has little competition
2) is scalable
3) in which others to do the work while the owner makes the profits
4) and which can be sold for millions when the owner is ready to retire.

I'd also add 5) is not something others will do for free as a hobby.

Photography is none of these things. There's load of competition, you do the shooting and can only shoot so many sessions a year, and nobody's going to buy your photography business when you're through. So a "business expert" would never be a photographer. They would choose another business that fits those criteria.

The "business expert photographer" is either lying (as in the example Gary gave of the "wipeout" book-selling guru) or ignorant, since they don't realize they're actually a mediocre to poor businessperson. Therefore taking a workshop about "the solid business of photography!" is a waste of money.

Can you make a living as a photographer? Absolutely. I do. But I'm not rich, and know I never will be with photography. Be a photographer because you love it and because you're good at it, but the photo biz shouldn't be sold to bored housewives as a "work at home get rich quick scheme."

Matt Radlinski

Posted 1/11/2011 2:27 PM by mattradlinski - - reply

@mattradlinski -

Damn, Matt, that was right on!!!! THANK you.

Posted 1/11/2011 4:06 PM by ATXphotog - - reply

First of all, Matt Radlinski is the ultimate hypocrite, because he's sitting here bashing people who are teaching the business of photography, all the while his website offers a workshop that teaches - GASP - "practical, up-the-minute advice on branding, marketing, pricing and selling in a competitive environment as well as Dos and Don'ts for a successful, long-term career in wedding and portrait photography." So, just so everyone is on the same page, Matt is the "dishonest, clueless, lying, ignorant" person he rants about in his post above.

Matt's hypocrisy aside, I think any rational person can see that claiming anyone who gets involved in photography is automatically a bad or dumb businessperson is ludicrous. Not everyone shares Matt's incredibly narrow and arbitrary rules for what "smart businesspeople like." Some people do get into business for the sole purpose of selling it off, but Matt's OPINION that that's the only "smart" business path is just that - HIS opinion. Despite what Matt would say, many brilliant businesspeople get into a business because they want to make a lot of money doing something they enjoy, and there are plenty of people that have been able to do precisely that. There are quite literally thousands - tens of thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands - of very very profitable and successful businesses that do not fit Matt's list, and you'd be a complete moron to think that the owners of those companies are "dumb businesspeople" just because their hefty paychecks didn't come from a business that met Matt Radlinski's stamp of approval. Aside from simply being in the black, there is no universal standard for what a business must look like to be considered "smart" or "a financial success."

Gary, I have the UTMOST respect for you and I've learned a lot from you, but with all due respect, you're guilty of the same thing you accuse others of doing - positioning yourself as an expert in an industry you're no longer in. How long has it been since you were hired to shoot a wedding? How long since photography was your full-time job? You're a millionaire who stopped shooting years ago, and from what I can tell reading your blog and your tweets, the majority of your photographer friends originate from one or two regional areas, and a lot of them don't even shoot anymore. Don't you think it's a little presumptuous for you to go around making claims like "This is a REALLY bad time to be in photography" or "It is hard for even the best best best to make a decent cash flow" or "the tide receded about four years ago" when you're largely out of touch with the average full-time professional photographer these days, especially the successful ones who are currently making a lot of money shooting? I enjoy hearing your feedback and your thoughts on what's happening, and your financial success obviously gives you a lot of credibility, but I think it would serve you well to remember that the slice of wedding photography you're seeing now through a few other people's businesses is not necessarily reflective of the industry as a whole.

Posted 1/11/2011 4:23 PM by stacyreeves - - reply

Matt wow that was really good. I want to add one thing, if you can put away savings as a photographer, it is still possible to have some good security behind you. In fact you can do that as a gardener, anything. The way I see it, even if you save $50 a month net, you're an investor.

Posted 1/11/2011 4:27 PM by garyfong1

- - reply

Hi Stacy - what I know of the industry is because of my friends who are in it. Our best friends are full-time photographers. We hear about it because we are in close touch. And as friends do, we share our feelings. Yes there are people who still do ok. But I've never seen it like this ever. And the irony is, I've never seen so many success seminars.

I don't know Matt, but his post does illustrate two things clearly: 1) the need for a discussion forum and 2) the silliness of applying the disciplines used in grooming a startup company for sale in an individual personal-service business. Whether a person is credible or not will be shaken out in a rating system and discussion forums.

Posted 1/11/2011 4:37 PM by garyfong1

- - reply

I do agree that there are far to many success workshops out there. But it seems like a simple example of supply/demand... lot's of new photographers out there trying to get started, and lots of industry pros losing work to these new photographers undercutting them... I just find it ironic that you would criticize them... You seem to have built your fortune selling plastic lampshades to new photographers with the promise of "beautiful light"... I bought it... but once I actually understood light I through it away...

Posted 1/11/2011 4:55 PM by bengodkin - - reply

Gary: I used to go to college, and I was very involved there. I have a lot of friends who still work at that college, or live near that college, or know people who are students at that college. I even have a couple of friends who are still students there themselves. Does that make me qualified to position myself as an expert on the state of the undergraduate student body at that college - because I used to be immersed in it, and I know some people who still are? Hardly.

I have to say I lost a lot of respect for you today when you tweeted this: "This might not be a wise time to go to a photo workshop that has business as a topic. Shoot to burn doesn't require training." I think it's both irresponsible and shameful to openly encourage people not to learn, study, and attempt to improve the business side of their careers. I've always thought of you as a person who wants to bring other people up, support them, encourage them in their businesses, and praise the merits of educating yourself and learning to be a good businessperson, but that's not the sentiment you're encouraging anymore. It seems like now you've become just another one of the people who would prefer that every professional photographer hang up their camera and just give up, even if they're making good money.

Posted 1/11/2011 4:58 PM by stacyreeves - - reply

I absolutely don't agree Stacy with you on this one. I'm not saying hang up your cameras, I'm saying that there are straight-out business workshops in photography that give the wrong impression. If you are doing fine, that is awesome. I am not here to discourage people I am here to keep them away from rip-off artists. If you can show me a seminar that gives business tips without unrealistic claims, please please let me know and I will post the exceptions in a blog post and tweet about it. I would totally encourage those, sincerely.

Posted 1/11/2011 5:17 PM by garyfong1

- - reply

So what you're saying is that you saw one or two photography workshops run deceptively or run by unqualified people, so you decided to just mass condemn them all, and encourage people not to attend ANY of them? How about you openly name and describe the people whose workshops and statements you object to, instead of saying "You know what, just don't bother going to any of them at all."

Posted 1/11/2011 5:46 PM by stacyreeves - - reply

I won't argue with you Stacy, except to say the difference between a wise man and a fool is that the wise man knows he's a fool.

Posted 1/11/2011 5:52 PM by mattradlinski - - reply

So what I've gathered from your posts, Matt, is that 1) you know you're a fool, 2) you've chosen a career that only stupid businesspeople choose, and 3) you teach workshops that only "dishonest, clueless, lying, ignorant" people teach. I guess, given all that, it doesn't surprise me that you react so negatively to everything around you, and constantly try to tear down your colleagues and the industry as a whole. I hope that your future brings some success and happiness so that someday you can view your life and career with a little more optimism and confidence.

Personally, I believe that wedding photography is an industry that grows bigger, better, and stronger every day. I believe there's more money to be made now than ever before. I believe there are countless wedding photographers that are not only talented artists, but brilliant businesspeople. And I believe that if you're willing to work extremely hard, constantly learn and grow and adapt to the changing market, take good care of your clients, make sacrifices when necessary (especially sacrifices of pride), and have passion for what you do, that you'll find success. I believe all of these things not because I'm naive, but because I've personally witnessed all of that again and again and again. I see the same high business failure rate and number of scam artist/deceitful WPs that you all do, but I choose not to let it jade me and make me oblivious to the large number of talented, ethical, smart, successful photographers that I interact with and learn from every day.

Posted 1/11/2011 6:50 PM by stacyreeves - - reply

I know the U.S is a different market but last time i was there i was working 2 days a week, shoving 3k in the bank and starbucks management decided i never had to pay for drinks because i was bringing new clients into the store.

Sure that was portrait work but seriously i cannot believe no one can make serious money from photography in the U.S.

Posted 1/11/2011 7:52 PM by chrisfawkes - - reply

I would be interested in what you guys think of Creativelive. I personally think they are amazing and that the people they bring on truly are teaching and helping. I was lucky enough to attend the Tamara Lackey workshop and it was thousands of millions of times better than the workshop i paid 800 bucks for last may. I think creativelive is changing the way people learn and bringing education to the masses. However, I am interested in your perspective on that.

Posted 1/11/2011 9:40 PM by katie_fulton - - reply

I don't know about CreativeLive - but that's one reason I thinK FEC will be an interesting community. Stacy, I like your positive energy for sure.

Posted 1/11/2011 10:46 PM by garyfong1

- - reply

If you are referring to who I think you are, I have been very suspicious of this person for many years due to his sudden arrival in my market but no client base that I could see. It seemed very deceptive.

Posted 1/12/2011 2:24 PM by socalshooter - - reply

Thank you Stacy for proving my point.

Gary, if you're looking to recommend a business workshop to new photographers, just send them to PPA's SMS workshop. It's $500 for 3 days and covers everything one needs to know about the business of photography, from tax and managerial accounting to pricing, selling, marketing and branding. Best of all, the instructors are PPA Studio Management Systems members, so they can't lie about what they know or what they make, because the PPA does their taxes. There's really no sense going to any other business workshop. For what it's worth, my workshops are almost entirely art classes, with only a little business stuff thrown in because everyone always wants to know what you sell and for how much, but I don't really teach business because I can't compete with the SMS workshop for quality or price.

Posted 1/12/2011 3:32 PM by mattradlinski - - reply

stacy, you rule.

Posted 1/13/2011 12:51 AM by shotshot - - reply

Gary, you are right on about this stuff. In NYC photographers are not really making the money they used to. Sure, the really known photographers are doing ok. Fred Marcus etc. By the way, Andy Marcus came to do a free two hour workshop at B&H a couple of months ago. I think speaker/seminar fees are going to go way down. Matt is right. There are lower cost/free options out there. Alot of the photo stores are sponsoring free workshops in NYC. I bet there are low cost options in other states as well. Check out this page to see what's available for free right now! http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/EventSpace.jsp

Consumers are much more savvy now and there are low cost options for books/albums available to the consumer (blurb, smugmug, etc.) Consumers don't want to pay for expensive albums anymore. Consumers can do their own professional looking slideshows in a few minutes with Animoto. So of course they want CDs. There are too many photographers and not enough work so consumers have bargaining power. The market has changed and photographers have to deal with it. That's life. Commercial photographers have seen their fees drop significantly. They are also being asked to do video and multimedia pieces for the same price they used to get for just photography. Seismic changes happen in various fields all the time. I know a lawyer and he is out of a job and working as a temp. People have to be flexible in their career choices now.

Posted 1/13/2011 8:28 AM by SerenaFF - - reply

VERY TRUE!!!! And looking at the program photo's of all the speakers, I could not find one image I thought was a "portrait worthy" image. How silly is that! If the speaker/photographer can't even turn in a good image for the WPPI program, then waht's the point of seeing them!?!?!?!???

Posted 1/14/2011 6:02 PM by nikonis - - reply

Gary, I HIGHLY regard your perspective on the industry, I think it is much needed and I hope more people will listen.

I too have realized that the heyday of wedding photography has passed, at least for quite a while. Portraiture can still be highly lucrative, but everything took a dip with digital.

I also agree that the abundance of workshops hosted by unknown or fake pros is staggering. I do believe there are a LOT of quality workshops out there, but I think the main issue is that people aren't paying for the right services; most of the time they're just paying to meet their industry idol. Which is of course a problem that faces ALL of society, not just the photography industry.

If people would stop being so smitten by celebrities' glamorous lifestyles, and invest in serious business coaching or a CPA or something, that would probably take them SO much further than paying to be in the presence of a photographer idol.

Why? Because nine times out of ten, people are just hoping for a silver bullet that takes them from zero to filthy rich in two years. They think there's still enough room in the industry for EVERYONE to get 60 weddings their first year if they just play their cards right. They hope that at the workshops of their idols, they'll find some magic success-formula previously unknown to them.

When in fact, their core issues are probably time management, focus, resilience, bookkeeping, customer response time / satisfaction, etc. etc. They should be investing their money on a REAL business coach or accountability / goal setting etc. partner, (like Jeff Jochum) ...not just a photographer who has been in business for a few months / years longer. Or they should invest their money in an office manager, or out-sourcing, etc. etc. ...and simply BUST THEIR ASS to get work done and bring in new business.

So, to the credit of many of the big-name photographers out there teaching workshops, it's not so much that the info taught is "bad" or worthless. It's just that 50-90% of the time, the wrong photographers are signing up for the wrong reasons... Most already know the subjects being taught at the workshop, they're just looking for that handout, that silver bullet. Any time a REALLY fresh beginner comes up with the $$$ for a high-dollar workshop, they're usually blown away completely, and often times they take that info, run with it, and achieve success. (Of course I wouldn't deny that the same info is available elsewhere for less!)

Anyways the point was, many of the big name pros are getting a bit more flak than they ought to; they're smart, successful, helpful people with a lot to offer if newbie photographers would actually do their homework, come up with better questions than "what lens do you shoot with", ...and stop thinking this is a free lunch.

Of course, hopefully a rating system will help to combat all of these issues, and I'm VERY much interested in Fisheye Connects's future. I wish more people would jump on board!

=Matt=

Posted 2/14/2011 6:05 PM by CameraTalk - - reply

Oh and when I say "portraiture can be highly lucrative", I don't mean that weddings can't. It sure can, and plenty of people will still pay for their retirement with weddings. But still, our heyday has passed. All art forms come and go, rise and fall. Just look at music, painting, sculpting, etc. When was the last time someone hand-carved "The David"?

Oh and in the sprit of full disclosure: I am a full-time photographer who makes 100% of his income shooting weddings and other things. I do host small workshops from time to time, but I specifically AVOID offering anything business-related because, well, let's just say I still drive a Toyota Corolla. I like your philosophy of asking to see a photographer's "credentials" or qualifications when they say they can help you achieve your goals. And based on those types of queries, I'm just not worth an investment for someone's business. What I CAN promise is that I can help people raise their own artistic and technical bar, and so I focus on helping hobbyists simply to pursue their passion. And so far the response has been mostly positive.

=Matt=

Posted 2/14/2011 6:11 PM by CameraTalk - - reply

browse comments: « first | ‹ prev