The people I know who WERE gay changed.  The bible says they can change.  All it takes is to be truly Born Again.  It has been proven by every former gay person who has become born again and never went back to that lifestyle. 

I guess Gary is having trouble coming up with topics..rehashing the same ones over and over getting the same answers and discussions.

what about Ted Strickland?

Or Ted Haggard, the Crystal Methodist?

PS If you want to know if your friend used to be a man get a close look at his/her hands. The ring finger of a man is almost always longer than his index finger. The index finger of a woman is always almost longer than her ring finger.

My ring finger and index finger are identical length. I'm apparently bisexual.

I think when you are definitive in your own sexuality it makes it easier to be tolerant of other peoples orientation. I'm so hetero that I really can't even fit the notion of being attracted to another man in my brain. I therefor find it easy to believe that a gay man is wired differently from me and is simply following his own natural attractions. I'd really hate it if I was forced by society / the church to 'change' from my orientation. So I do unto others as I would have them do to me.

I've never seen a man with a ring finger longer than middle finger

I couldn't be paid any amount of money to be attracted to men. I also couldn't care less if gay people are born that way or something in their upbringing leads them that way. I would imagine it's a little of both. But like I said, I don't care.

I like good people. If you're gay and good, great! If you're straight and good, same! If you're straight OR gay and you're an arrogant jerk, I won't like you. That's it for me.

Having said that, I sure as hell hope my kids aren't gay. I hope it just as I hope my kids are able to have children. Creating life is a gift that I want my child to have the choice to do or not. Just one of a few reasons I don't want my kid to be gay. Would I love them less? Hell no. I still have my preference.

Oh yeah, hating on people who think the act of homosexuality is immoral is intolerance just as hating on gay people is. Let's tolerate those we disagree with, shall we? It's really not that hard.

Are there some christians who mistreat gays? You bet. Are there some gays who hate christians? You bet. The key is to be tolerant. And we can't be tolerant with those we agree with. Tolerance is a trait strictly reserved for those who we disagree with. If you can't tolerate those who you disagree with, you're closeminded ;)

It's ok? Where does it end? Listen I have gay friends too, but that doesn't mean and has never meant that it is ok. Let's be straight...no pun intended.
Are wife beaters, pedifiles, sex slave traders, ok because the people can be nice? Wow, we all have a choice of what kind of life we want to live. We have a choice.
I think you have more tolerance on this topic that those that do patent infringement. Why not just let them have a choice to copy your goods.
They were born to steal, just accept them the way they are.

@ronstorer - 

Ironically, there is talk of a "clepto" gene :)

However, I'm no gay rights activist, but I think it's a bit much to compare gay people to wife beaters and everything else you just did.

It sounds like you need a little compassion vis a vis gay people. I think you'd be surprised how many gay people really struggled with being gay - and tried hard not to be. You can feel that the act of homosexuality is immoral all day long and STILL not feel like they are comparable to wife beaters and pedifiles.

You must know that there is a greater moral problem in trading humans to be raped for money than there is in two men hooking up, right?

Our world is made up of all sorts of people. We all were given our own free will by God, and we all are sinners and we all make mistakes each and everyday.

Knowone is ever born gay. That has to be the stupidest thing you have ever said Gary. This topic dosent even belong on this blog, you must be bored or something. You really like to stir things up for your own amusement dont you Gary?

I want to very clear here about acceptance and love. In regard to my dear friends that are gay I do love them dearly and accept them as my good friends.
However, that does not mean that I condone or agree with their life style. It is a huge mistake to finally go down that path and accept behaviour that is wrong and say it is right.

"Knowone is ever born gay. "

Your ignorance of homosexuality is exceeded only by your ignorance of the english language.

You christian bigot hypocrites can all go fuck yourselves. Your moronic statements about "acceptance and love" while spewing hate, oppression and discrimination are laughably transparent to anyone with half a brain.

YOUR behavior is the one that is wrong... but thankfully, so is your ideology.

And I call total and complete BULLSHIT on the "I have gay friends" canard. If your so-called gay friends read what you wrote about them they would dump you faster than Ted Haggard pretended to be straight.

There, that should get some traffic going.

ps:

http://www.marriedtothesea.com/090507/homophobic-senator.gif

And Gary bans Christians but lets the ramblings and cussings that guy stay on the board..  Looks like Gary and his thinking is a little warped.  So much for tolerance..ban other Christians but keep this idiot on..and Gary you said you used to be a Christian?  According to the bible you never were..

@fjblau - 

Honest question. Do you define "hate" as someone who believes that homosexuality is not the ideal sexual lifestyle from a moral standpoint? Or do you define "hate" as when people actually hate gays?

If you are this up in arms about people who simply have a moral problem with homosexual activity, and deem them "christian bigot hypocrites", then you, ironically, are a tad bigoted, in my view. If you are reserving such judgments for those who would seek to punish people for being gay, treat them negatively on a personal basis, or publicly state they hate gay people, then I'm on board with you.

My hunch is that you lump every christian into the label "christian bigot hypocrites." If not, please correct me. If so, I just don't see how that's progressive, open-minded, or tolerant.


p.s. it is interesting who Gary does and doesn't censor...

@itistim - 

"Do you define "hate" as someone who believes that homosexuality is not the ideal sexual lifestyle from a moral standpoint? Or do you define "hate" as when people actually hate gays?"

I see no difference between "hate" and "not the ideal lifestyle from a moral standpoint".

"If you are reserving such judgments for those who would seek to punish people for being gay, treat them negatively on a personal basis, or publicly state they hate gay people, then I'm on board with you."

And yes, I am reserving that judgment for those hateful, bigoted people. Which also includes people who preach that you can "pray away the gay" or those that think that gay people don't deserve the same legal and human rights as other people. Or those that hide behind doublespeak like "It is a huge mistake to finally go down that path and accept behaviour that is wrong and say it is right" or "Knowone is ever born gay" [sic] as they do so. That is utter and complete bullshit of the lowest order.

And no, I don't lump ALL christians into that label. My brother is a christian minister, and he shares none of those traits with the bigots. Episcopalian Bishop Eugene Robinson is also a christian and um, also gay, and not someone I would call a bigot.

If that Jesus Christ character were incarnated today, he'd be appalled at the things being done "in his name".

And really, I don't think Gary censors much.

You're right, Gary never seems to sensor you :P JK

I don't know man, I think you're a bit too intolerant. It just seems a bit scary to hear someone say "if you disagree with me and think this way about homosexuality - which I judge as wrong - no matter if you ACT kindly towards gay people - you are a hateful bigot who shouldn't be tolerated."

Too judgmental for me.

@itistim - 

That's a bit of a straw man argument.

Telling someone publicly (like on a message board, or from a pulpit) that you think that WHO they are is morally wrong is not exactly what I call "acting kindly" towards someone.

And yeah, I am intolerant of that, and judgmental too. Guilty as charged. :)

I'm not seeing the straw man. I am, however, seeing a false dichotomy in acting like you have to think that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality in any way, shape, or form, OR you actively hate homosexuals.

I think you're too black and white. It seems insane for me to say that someone who thinks that homosexuality is not the optimal sexual lifestyle is the same as being a hateful bigot who doesn't deserve tolerance.

The problem with your assessment is that it goes too far when you take it to its logical end.

A more rational approach would be to take christians with couples who live together but won't marry. That's not morally sound according to christian doctrine. No normal person thinks that your typical christian (who generally thinks it's better [morally speaking] for a couple to marry and live together than to live together and never marry) is "anti-people-living-together-but-never-marrying" and therefore is a hateful bigot undeserving of tolerance.

Thinking the way you speak here does not create a world where people can think adversely but still coexist in a friendly way. It's too easy to demonize people and get stuck in your ways when you think the way you are talking here (note - I am making the distinction of how you are here and how you are in real life as you might not act out in real life as strongly as you speak here).

That's my take on it.

The straw man was in putting YOUR words in quotes as if they were MINE, and then arguing against it.

Your analogy fails because LIVING TOGETHER without being married, is a choice. Being gay is not.

But to use your analogy, I would never even KNOW if that person was a hateful bigot unless they opened up their mouth and started telling people living together that they were doomed to eternal suffering in a flaming pit of fire for living together.

I don't think Christianity is the optimum lifestyle either, but you don't see me legislating against it or condemning the practitioners to some mythical "Saw 5" torture chamber for it.

But I think those that know me personally would agree with you... I can be a pretty argumentative prick online sometimes. Don't even get me started on the creationist thread :) But in person, I'm mostly sane.

Saw 5 torture chamber? A little hyperbolic there Frank? You seem to to blow a fuse over this issue - when people express a reason for the thought that homosexuality is immoral. Why do you care - you don't have any reason for the Bible or garner it any credibility. But homosexuality, along with hundreds of other sins that can be attributed to all of us in one way or another, are the reason Jesus died on the cross. Christians believe it - non-Christians don't.

My closest friend in High School came out after High School - became a leading activist in the country and all the while marching against the "hate" of "intolerant" people and demanding that the govornment do more to cure aids - ended up dying of aids at 27 years old along with a few of his partners. Sad and pretty obvious - demonize those who disagree...demand that the govornmnet find a cure for a BEHAVIORLY spread disease yet never consider the behavior itself. The same for other STD's and abortions...just let me do what I want!

(Frank - insert obscenity laced tyrade at me here....)

Now everyone back to work!