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Original: 10/10/2008 6:59 AM
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Friday, October 10, 2008

 markets are crashing Bookmark and Share

I'm up at 653am P.S.T. watching as the DOW dropped over 500 points on the open.  I never, ever would trade in things like index options, hedgefunds, etc. because I simply cannot control them number one, and number two - I have no actionable research that these would hold any value.

I really wish this bailout plan didn't go through.  It wasn't going to work, and I tried like crazy to tell friends, write my senators and congressperson, and it went through.  I also just wish Bush could've done one thing decent before he left office, but instead he literally signs a bill that rips money straight out of taxpayer's hands and gives it to the rich executives who completely miscalled this market.  
Government bailouts, infusions of cash have been tried before.  They do not increase lending in a credit-strapped market when the economy is in a tailspin.  If banks stopped lending, then you decrease the rates, or pump liquidity.  OK that's been tried - nothing.  Then you just wait it out.  You don't rape the taxpayer.  Cash going to banks is not going to be lent out simply because they're pretty darn smart and they know if they lend money now, chances are they won't get it back.  So they hang on to it.
Nothing was gained in this taxpayer bailout.  Bush said, "we must act now to stabilize the markets".  How did that go for you?
McCain says, "I'm suspending my campaign to go back to Washington to help this bill get passed".  Good call, Maverick!
 Posted 10/10/2008 6:59 AM - 3159 Views - 26 eProps - 43 comments

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then what should they have done? It is easy to say the plan is stupid it won't work.
Posted 10/10/2008 7:44 AM by spencer402 - recommend - reply

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Goofball...you are obviously not paying attention to the bank stocks...

MER up 12.5% so far

FITB up 8.3% so far

BAC up 7.7% so far

WB up 31.9% so far

C (even lowly Citi who got snubbed on the Wachovia deal) is up 8%...

They'll all go down, too.  But you are only going to hear and see what you want to hear and see.  I was against the bailout, too, but you have to admit...these weird things going on in the market very likely were going to happen with or without the bailout...the bailout is not the root cause of the weirdness...

Posted 10/10/2008 7:48 AM by bluesky93 Xanga True Member - recommend - reply

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I think Obama made that trip too. He didn't take his Federal Building bombing budddy or crazy Reverend with him. Lets see how many John's have I grown up with.....How many Barak Hussein's??  We are talking radicals. While all of these guys are liars and tell you what you want to hear, check out people friends and who they associate and do business with and that will tell you a lot. 
Posted 10/10/2008 7:51 AM by ShooterSteve - recommend - reply

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@ShooterSteve - 



"Lets see how many John's have I grown up with.....How many Barak Hussein's?? "

Stellar way to pick a president. Well, at least TRY and FAIL at picking a president.

President Barack Hussein Obama.

Get used to it.
Posted 10/10/2008 8:20 AM by fjblau - recommend - reply

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my folks retirement is down 124,000 now. ouch!
Posted 10/10/2008 8:24 AM by ahpphotos - recommend - reply

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One term Barack.  Get used to it. 

(He'll gonna make Carter look like an economic prophet.)

Watch what the market does on November 5th.  GM's market cap is down to under $3 billion -- can you believe it?  And OTB is going to tax the snot out of evil corporations.  Yeah...that's gonna save some jobs!

Posted 10/10/2008 8:38 AM by bluesky93 Xanga True Member - recommend - reply

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He'll make...he's gonna...  LOL.  I love having ADD!
Posted 10/10/2008 8:40 AM by bluesky93 Xanga True Member - recommend - reply

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@fjblau - Yeah I am afraid your right, funny how no one ever seems to get their mind changed. I would go for a John and Joe ticket though. See if the Acorn thing brings out the truth or maybe the Clinton's have something up their sleeve, they have been very quiet. Would be nice if the media was equal. This is after all our country. In all seriousness the Ayers (sp?) thing with Obama is a big deal. I am concered but less concerned about Obama being in as I am Obama AND Nancy and the congress. That is just a lot of corruption. The Demo's passed the Bail Out to fix their mistake in the first place. Yes Bush presented it to quickly and timely, we are all in a big mess and have to look down the road. Regardless of the prez. Congress and the Senate need major replacemets. 

Posted 10/10/2008 8:47 AM by ShooterSteve - recommend - reply

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"Watch what the market does on November 5th. GM's market cap is down to under $3 billion -- can you believe it? And OTB is going to tax the snot out of evil corporations. Yeah...that's gonna save some jobs!"

Are you watching what the market is doing NOW?

Ask me again in 2 years, at the very least.

And as for ShooterSteve... I'm sure if they had good Aryan names like Herman, Joseph and Adolf... they'd get your vote.

"The Demo's passed the Bail Out..."

Do you even know what the final tally was by party... and um, who signed it into law? I didn't think so.
Posted 10/10/2008 9:21 AM by fjblau - recommend - reply

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Not too many comments on this one?
Even though I've voted republican the last 5 presidential elections, I'm very disillusioned with the government, the party and the whole process. To use the excuse that they're all politicians, human and not to be trusted doesn't change the feelings of disappointment I've been struggling with. I was glad when they turned down the bailout and then...AIG corporate retreat?!? I imagine it kept the hotel, and everyone else [including fellow photog's] working and able to pay their mortgages.
I have wondered about this "credit" house of cards for years and when it would collapse on us.
What would you say to a cabinet post? Gary for Federal Reserve Chief!
Posted 10/10/2008 10:02 AM by ewittmayer - recommend - reply

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@ewittmayer - If Gary were Federal Reserve Chief, you know that he would bring back the gold standard

Posted 10/10/2008 10:34 AM by qnetx - recommend - reply

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I wonder if the next President will repeal the Bailout... Rescue.... Rape The Taxpayer bill?

I just received my Absentee Ballot yesterday and I may vote for one of the other ELEVEN Presidential candidates on the ballot. I bet the majority of voters don't realize that there are other candidates besides Obama and McCain. Hey... that may be a great question for Jay Leno's street interviews.

Posted 10/10/2008 10:38 AM by qnetx - recommend - reply

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I amazed everyday when I hear people talking Republicans vs Democrats. How about private banks non Federal Reserve creation charging interest vs The backs of the citizens (owners of the United States.

JFK, Lincoln, Andrew Jackson & Garfield all against a commercial central banking system & when they try to get rid of it or speak out against it... they are assassinated or in Jackson's case attempted assassinations. Coincidence?

There are what.... only 4 presidents killed that way....3 of them were against a central banking system & when they try to issue govt issue bills.... what happens.... they are killed & immediately after their currency is mostly removed from circulation.

Andrew Jackson is almost killed 3 different times & states implicitly that the banks are trying to kill him.

Thomas Jefferson says we will be giving away the country our fathers fought & our children will be homeless, if we employ a private central banking system.

Republicans vs Democrats is pure ignorance or at least a life of being raised by mass media. Cradle to Grave.
Posted 10/10/2008 10:49 AM by med267 - recommend - reply

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Citizens of the United States are enslaved by a crushing debt load payable to the private Federal Reserve
(Fed like FedEx).

If we had a goverment issued currency our income taxes would not have to go to the debt load imposed by lended money from (Fed)commercial banks that create it out of thin air. I wish I had that ability.

'Here is some money I created & if I give it to you...you have to pay me back more !' (sarcasm intended)

There would be not interest or inflation caused by our own government.....private banks charge interest which you pay with your effort & life.

Your income tax does not go to pay for services.....it goes to pay interest to a private banking system that created The Fed in secrecy on the day before Christmas Eve in 1913 when most US representatives were home on vacation.

Sounds like a coup to me.

The Fed (private) lends money to us & we have to pay it back + interest (which is massive now.....hmmm why cant we pay Social Security?..... maybe because then we couldnt pay the private Fed's interest back | Priorities First !!!)

If our own government issued a currency....it wouldnt have to charge interest to itself (Us the people, who have to work & give away our lives to service the debt load)

We enslave third world countries through lending too much money to them....why do you think it doesnt happen here?
Posted 10/10/2008 11:18 AM by med267 - recommend - reply

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Thank you, Med 267. I wish the rest of you would stop fighting between republicorps and demicraps to realize you are Americans . . . you are beginning to reap the whirlwind of this kind of thinking, but I said this months ago here so back to your regularly scheduled debates . . .
Posted 10/10/2008 11:24 AM by tondeaf - recommend - reply

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@tondeaf - 



I reject your framing that Republicans AND Democrats are not americans... and some of them even good ones at that. I'm not sure who you think real americans are? Libertarians? Heck, most of them don't even believe in democracy.
Posted 10/10/2008 12:41 PM by fjblau - recommend - reply

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Gary -- this article made me think about you.    Have you purchased a bunch of safes recently? 
Posted 10/10/2008 1:01 PM by bluesky93 Xanga True Member - recommend - reply

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@fjblau - 



Fjblau--and you seem to be the most vitrolic culprit.

Who do we see ourselves as FIRST? Democrats, or Americans? Is the other party "The Enemy"? And, I would love to see evidence as to how a president from either major political party would do anything differently than the other presidents have for almost the past 100 years, which has resulted in many deaths and unnecessary suffering for people worldwide . . . including the current crisis, which is both parties doing from 1913 onwards. You talk as if the republicans are responsible for everything.

If you want to stand for principles, fine. If you want to attack those who aren't voting as you are--well, not so much. And in current conditions, I really can't understand it.
Posted 10/10/2008 1:14 PM by tondeaf - recommend - reply

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@fjblau - I tend to be more Libertarian than either Republican or Democrat and I believe in democracy. But sometimes I would rather see a true democracy rather than the representative version we have in the U.S. -  I guess I just don't trust or have faith in the middlemen that supposedly represent me.  I say "sometimes" because after seeing some of the extremists on both ends, I'm glad there are representatives to filter them out. I wonder though if statistically the mean of voters would be a true measure of a normally distributed concensus or if the distribution is so skewed that you would have to go by the median instead. (sorry about the math talk).

My traditional simplistic views of the Democrat and Republican party values were; that the Democrats favored that the government take care of the people (because supposedly the masses are not capable of making their own decisions and take care of themselves) and that would entail large government, lots of regulating, and lots of taxes to fund all the social programs. The Republicans, on the other hand, felt that people should be responsible for themselves and left to pursue opportunities on their own with little government meddling and generally were for smaller government, less spending, lower taxes, and free enterprise to encourage greedy capitalism. Democrats were liked by blue-collar America and white collar america favored the Republicans. As I have watched the parties change over time, those descriptions are no longer the case. In the last several decades, the Republicans have over spent and restricted individual rights in the name of government protection. I really view both parties as one now with wider bandwidth between extremes depending on each candidate. It's a crap shoot.

Posted 10/10/2008 1:20 PM by qnetx - recommend - reply

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"Who do we see ourselves as FIRST? Democrats, or Americans? Is the other party "The Enemy"? And, I would love to see evidence as to how a president from either major political party would do anything differently than the other presidents have for almost the past 100 years"

Non-sequitur... And a false dilemma to boot.

A person can be both, without any ranking or priority... since they are falsely based in opposition to each other in your context.

I would love to see how anyone that WASN'T from a major political party in the last 100 years accomplished anything CLOSE to the body of legislative and economic work that our major parties have.

Libertarians are just right-wing marxists.
Posted 10/10/2008 1:28 PM by fjblau - recommend - reply

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'Libertarians are just right-wing marxists'

That is a very naive statement. I also dont see how you twisted the idea that anyone was 'framing' Democrats & Republicans as un-American.

That was quite a stretch from what has been written. Libertarians arent going to solve the problems either, so if that makes you feel better.

'I would love to see how anyone that WASN'T from a major political party in the last 100 years accomplished anything CLOSE to the body of legislative and economic work that our major parties have.'

100 years is a short time frame to judge... I would say more was done when it comes to freedom in the previous 100 year.

I would say that in the last 100 years, more has been done to LIMIT what is possible, then to truly make progress.

Money has been horrendously devalued in 100 years & prices inflated by obscene amounts.

If that is the progress you are so proud about....I have to take your opinions with a grain of salt.

We now have a government setup exactly as the founding fathers warned us against.
Posted 10/10/2008 2:57 PM by med267 - recommend - reply

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fjblau -

To show you how dopey your comment about "Libertarians just being Right Wing Marxists"

I have to wonder is that something you heard on TV or from some person you respect somewhere?

The terms don't even jibe:

Here is the classic beliefs of Marxism:

* a belief that capitalism is based on the exploitation[ of workers by the owners of the means of production. (Does that sound Right Wing or terrible?)
* a belief that people's consciousness of the conditions of their lives reflects the dominant ideology which is in turn shaped by material conditions and relations of production (Does that sound Right Wing or terrible?)
* an understanding of class in terms of differing relations of production, and as a particular position within such relations
* an understanding of material conditions and social relations as historically malleable
* a view of history according to which class struggle, the evolving conflict between classes with opposing interests, structures each historical period and drives historical change
* a belief that this dialectical historical process will ultimately result in a replacement of the current class structure of society with a system that manages society for the good of all, resulting in the dissolution of the class structure and its support (more often than not including the nation state) (Whoaaaaa that one is out of line for humanitarians.)

You sound like a mass media spoonfed zombie.
Posted 10/10/2008 3:08 PM by med267 - recommend - reply

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Since you seem to fear Marxist ideas. You should be quite aware that your candidate (obama) has been accused of having Marxist tendencies as well.
Look around. Marxism doesnt have anything to do principle wise with dictator led govt.

It has to do with benefiting the people, instead of laying them directly in front of & across the train tracks of profit.

I don't believe totally in Marxism, but I do believe that most people believe somehow that it is bad without ever investigating actually what it is.

Ask someone from Venezuela who isnt paid by the US Government how they like Chavez. I bet you will find a fiercely loyal citizenry.
Posted 10/10/2008 3:30 PM by med267 - recommend - reply

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@med267 - I beg to differ about Chavez's Venezuela. My girlfriend is Venezuelan and just returned from visiting her family there. I have also spoken with her parents and the families of her sisters over the last four years. They are ardent anti-Chavez and are constantly describing the hardships living under Chavez, the deterioration of their standard of living, and they are concerned for the future of Venezuela. When any of them visit the U.S., they go shopping for basic items that are no longer available in Venezuela. What they described to me is exactly what my parents and I lived through under the Castro regime. That, of course, is of no surprise to me since Chavez is following the Castro model for destroying a prosperous nation. I feel very lucky and priviliged to now be an American citizen living in the U.S. and despite all of the craziness with the economy right now, our standard of living is still far better than Cuba or today's Venezuela.

I do agree with you that as for my Libertarian slant, my beliefs are in direct contradiction to Marxist principles. Funny, when we came to the U.S. as refugees in the mid-sixties, our family associated Democrats with the Socialist-Communist Marxist types. That is why most of the old-guard Cubans in Miami are the most staunch supporters of the Republican (and I would also claim Libertarian) way. I have mellowed with age and have become more Centrist. Now I feel that both parties can offer something of benefit to the nation  that also coincide with my personal beliefs. It is just tough finding all those good qualities in one candidate.

Posted 10/10/2008 6:58 PM by qnetx - recommend - reply

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@qnetx - 



I appreciate to hear your point of view as it seems polite, intelligent & very rounded.

I still have to agree to disagree as I have many Venezuelan ,Cuban & Russian friends & while they decry some areas of life in their respective countries. They don't deny that The United States has had a large part to do with economic embargo stranglehold over their countries that makes it hard to buy consumer items & to grow as a nation.

My belief is ideas that can enrich the human experience, but haven't been allowed to grow to fruition ... don't make them poor ideas.
Just unrealized ones.

I can understand your point of view relating what you say here:

'I feel very lucky and priviliged to now be an American citizen living in the U.S. and despite all of the craziness with the economy right now, our standard of living is still far better than Cuba or today's Venezuela.'

OK But, I feel like the standard of living from my point of view has gone down obscenely here in the United States.
Especially in the area of healthcare, education & the devaluation of the dollar (long before the current crisis).

So even though you feel it is far better here, it has fallen a long steep way from where it once was. Citizens should be unhappy about that.

The United States is currently focused on the premise of expressing individuality through buying consumer items. It wasnt always that way.
We have become generally a nation of poorly educated, rude, entertained & hypnotized worker bees that are giving our lives away to pay for it.

I believe we have to talk about progress & new ideas, not about how it is better now, than where you were before.

My wife is Russian & she still talks about how great communism was & how happy they were. Believe me when I tell you Americans never believe it when they hear it. They look at her like she is insane, because to them they have heard their whole lives how terrible communism is.

She talks about how they never locked the door, everybody was employed & happy. Kids were able to play in the park until midnight without fear.

That is a long way from what the United States has turned into since the early 1960's.

In reference to Castro & Chavez..... it is very difficult to lead a small country against a very large economic & military resourceful country.

They are embargo'd to death & many good humanitarian leaders of countries are simply assassinated if they don't play along.

That doesnt make them wrong....it makes it a tough game for a small country to win.

I am not a marxist, communist, republican, democrat or libertarian, but I believe we need to get back to the ideas our forefathers fought for in the beginnings of The United States.

I think to start with getting rid the private bank Fed system loaning us money at crushing interest is a great first step.

Let the US issue its own currency with no interest.

Get rid of political lobbying would be a great 2nd step.

Stop trying to be involved in nation building through military occupation.

Partner & build with other countries, don't bury them in debt & officiate them.

We are born into a world of working for & needing money all the time.

It is hard to imagine any other way of life.....if that is all we have ever known.

Thank you for your note... I enjoyed reading it on my day off today.

Take care & best wishes *
Posted 10/10/2008 8:04 PM by med267 - recommend - reply

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