@igroveman - 

The liberal turned conservative, and you have a way with words...:) "Beating on their mothers who got mugged. I realized that I was on the wrong side. Ultimately...choose to go with country or against it..." Wow! What imagery!

If you've not read my (right & wrong) bucket story on another post, you may not know about the other bucket, the "different" one. Should we be surprised that people only see "right" and "wrong" buckets in politics, religions, and social issues? "You are either with us, or against us." "You either accept Jesus as your Savior, or you will not be saved, and go to Hell." "You're either pro-choice or pro-life." Sounds familiar?

Seems like the information spinners and communicators know how to use those buckets...:) Bush's speech writers really knew what they were doing. Even McDonald has more choice on their menus. Imagine, "You're either a red meat lover or a white meat lover." "You either buy a large soda or a small one." "You either buy an apple tart, or you don't get any other type of desert." No compromise, take no prisoners. Does not make any sense at McDonald, I wonder why it makes more sense when we deal with people.

As a Canadian "outsider", I don't emotionally get involved in American politics, although I follow it and realize how much it could influence Canada's. I look for communication patterns, and spaced repetition of words and phrases across media on particular issues. I hear even some respected journalists repeating things zombie-like, that they've picked up from other networks and communication channels. Sometimes their statements are hidden in questions, but people can take questions as stated facts. Then, of course, "America" picks that up, and as long as it fits their own version of buckets, everything is "honky dory". Axes of Evil. Telling people what they want to hear to validate their buckets. Right OR Wrong...no in-betweens? Jeessshh...scaaaaaary!

However, some people realize eventually, that the buckets that were constructed before age 7 for them with the help of parents, mentors, teachers, friends, and well-wishers who want to validate their own buckets, need to be re-examined as an adult, and some shit needs to be thrown out, because it simply does not make any sense anymore, even if it did before.

What happened to critical thinking? What happened to common sense? You're actually serious about what you wrote? Now, on the count of three, you will wake up feeling refreshed, with a clear open mind, feeling good not only about yourself, but about all your fellow Americans, no matter what their opinions are, especially if they are "different" than yours. They have their reasons to think that way, as you have yours. You may want to discover common grounds, by getting rid of stupid biases and personal prejudices - dump some stuff from the buckets, so to say.... OK, here goes. On the count of three.... 1 - 2 - 2.5 - 3....WAKE UP!...:lol:

@richardj7 - 

Except for, when it comes to eternity and/or dealing with babies who deserve life, it is no longer a McDonald's menu, it is right or wrong, good or evil. I'll pass on the idea of whitewashing my existing ideas of right and wrong per your bucket analogy, since from what I see in the world we need a lot more conviction of what is right and what is wrong, and not a lot less. You actually think I am so stupid and shallow as to have heard Bush use the phrase "axes of evil," therefore, "oooo I think the Iraqis are evil!"

You are also using said logic and your own rationale as the ultimate moral judge and even Maker and God of all. If you can't apply external principles to your morality and you have none, then you are nothing more than a madman. Your morality might as well as be as ultimate or complex as whether you feel like toast or not in the morning. No wonder abortion has slaughtered so many millions of people - ultimately, abortion is not the problem, it's moral vacuousness, selfishness, and the breakdown of the family that has done so. As long as we continue to ignore our consciences and God's Law, we will continually come up with justifications and reasons why everything that man does under Heaven is right - but eternity will show you who is the ultimate moral Judge and what the real, ultimate standards he holds us to are.

"As long as we continue to ignore our consciences and God's Law"

I think it is the height of arrogance to assume we share the same idea of God, much less what his "laws" are.

I too will always vote pro-life - no apologies. Life at conception is scientific, not just moral.  Roe v Wade os simply bad law that may eventually change - THAT is why you vote. This country has had scores of laws that were bad and eventually were overturned or ammended.

And Missy - I encourage you to consider how you might feel when a school district (the govornment) decides to hand your daughter a pill, or a diaphram, or condoms, what message that is sending her. After all, who suffers long term when that promise of love is eventually broken or an unwanted pregnancy occurs - the young girl - every time. Sure as hell not the guy! That societal pressure is completely laid on the girl's shoulder. What message is she getting?

The guy gets his jollies and that is ALL he wanted in the first place - the girl gets a broken heart and the realization that she gave up one of the most intimate things she could have saved for her true love.

I love my three little daughters enough that it will be the central message of their upbringing that they are worth so much in the eyes of God and their parents. This self-worth will hopfully raise them above how pop-culture and society views them and what is important. So when the day comes when some teacher or friend hands her a pill/patch/whatever and says you should'nt but since you probably will... she will have a much higher self worth than. This goes for my son to.

Frank -

"What happened to critical thinking? What happened to common sense? You're actually serious about what you wrote? Now, on the count of three, you will wake up feeling refreshed, with a clear open mind, feeling good not only about yourself, but about all your fellow Americans, no matter what their opinions are, especially if they are "different" than yours. They have their reasons to think that way, as you have yours. You may want to discover common grounds, by getting rid of stupid biases and personal prejudices - dump some stuff from the buckets, so to say.... OK, here goes. On the count of three.... 1 - 2 - 2.5 - 3....WAKE UP!...:lol:"

@igroveman - 

"We need a lot more conviction of what is right and wrong, and not a lot less."
Total agreement with you. Problem is, the content of the buckets are not the same for everyone. Which ones have the "right" buckets? Seems that opinions differ on the matter, hence wars, disagreements, etc.

OK. Are the Iraquis evil? Simple yes or no? Be careful, you could be using the "different" bucket, and we would not want that, would we? That could complicate life to no end. We were not trained in early infancy for that. That will screw up our perfect morals.

"You are also using said logic and your own rationale as the ultimate moral judge and even Maker and Gof of all."
What said logic and rationale are you using when making your own moral judgments about your Maker and God of all? Is your God the same as the Muslims, Hindus, Jews? If not, who's moral judgment and rationale is that?

"If you can't apply external principles to your morality, and you have none..."
What external principles and morality are we referring to? The same one that condemns killing a fetus (i.e. more than 8 weeks according to the dictionary) or the one that says it's okay to kill fully grown people, because we are "right" and they are "wrong"? How many States have capital punishment still? Why are you not picketing in front of the buildings that hold those death machines?

"...ultimately, abortion is not the problem, it's moral vacuousness, selfishness, and the breakdown of the family that has done so."
And the reason why that is? Maybe the "American dream" pushed on a daily basis by posters, ads, capitalism, poverty, lack of education, double, triple standards? Pour the Irak War money into education, health, opportunities, job creation, social care, housing. Give more sex education in schools instead or moralizing them and trying to convince them to hold off until they get married. Religion and sex should not mix. It's just as ridiculous to ban condoms in the Catholic Church when aids is rampant, and unwanted pregnancies are climbing.

"As long as we continue to ignore our consciences and God's Law"
Which God's Law? The one in the Old Testament, like Thou shalt not kill? Are we ignoring our consciences, then? Or de we find justifications to sorta gloss over that one for convenience's sake? Are we encouraging war every time we pump gas in our cars? If not, are we financing terrorist groups? What about when we /buyhold shares in companies that build weapons of mass destruction? What about when we vote for a warring party? Where/when do our morals kick in?

“Be still, and know that I am God” (Psalm 46:10)? Is it the Law interpreted by men, the one in the numerous translations, omissions, and interpretations of the Scriptures? Not the ones that were later found and left out of the Bible, because they did not "fit" in with the rest?

Shall we ignore what Luke wrote 17:20: “The Kingdom of God is within you.” Am I wrong in saying that WITHIN does not mean without or outside somewhere in the clouds, in a building, in dogma?

God's Law may have been set, but a whole bunch of lawyers (see preachers, false prophets, well-intentioned, and not so well-intentioned people) set their minds to interpret it for themselves and for other people - mostly for control of the masses.

"...we will continually come up with justifications and reasons why everything that man does under Heaven is right..."
Amen! That's what happening right now. "Right" depends on what side of the fence you are.

"...but eternity will show you who is the ultimate moral Judge and what the real, ultimate standards he holds us to are..."
Don't wait for eternity. You ARE your ultimate moral Judge. We all are. However, did Jesus not say, "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged." Luke 6:37. I would also believe, that apart from judging other people, it could also include ourselves. We should not be judging ourselves, either, even less other people.

Definition of "Judgment": the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions. One definition of "sensible" is, "readily perceived". Since we are not talking about stuff that is "readily perceived" when we talk about things spiritual, our words could be completely out of whack, since perception is a subjective thing coming out of the mechanics of the brain. And we know how wrong it could be.

So, the "ultimate standards he holds us to are", would suppose that there should be no judgment. After all, I doubt that God would hold us up to the adage, "Don't do what I do, do what I say."

Funny thing just crossed my mind. When people die, they say, "He kicked the bucket." See, there are buckets after all...:lol:

"What message is she getting? "

That she is not at the mercy of a man in terms of her reproductive choices.

That is a good enough for me.

@fjblau - 

It is only arrogant if assumption is taking place. If one argues that it is an assumption to argue that a human fetus has a right to live and not for an adult human to choose for it to die, then I can safely assume that you are in a place where the most basic laws of conscience and humanity are no longer audible to you. Which is worse - arrogance from so-called presumption, or arrogance from being deaf?

As Peggy Noonan said in a recent column, why not just "let it live?" She also said, "Anyone who has bought a pack of condoms knows when conception happens." It is too bad that too many men are too irresponsible to take responsibility for everything that is involved in relationships and not just the part that they want.

@stuartallen - 

Till they lay down their arms of their own accord and agree to peace, someone, either our children, or theirs, or beyond them, will have to deal with the same problem.

"If one argues that it is an assumption to argue that a human fetus has a right to live and not for an adult human to choose for it to die, then I can safely assume that you are in a place where the most basic laws of conscience and humanity are no longer audible to you."

Ad hominum attacks. Yawn.

"It is too bad that too many men are too irresponsible to take responsibility for everything that is involved in relationships and not just the part that they want."

Agreed. As the father of both a teenage daughter and a teenage son, I hope that I have taught mine the value of that responsibility. So far so good.

Let's see now......The Democrats seized control of both houses two years ago with the promise of massive change. What have they accomplished...........zip, nada, zero. The liberals can blame all of the country's problems on the Bush administration, but the truth is Nancy and her idiots have done nothing to change anything. Oasama Obama was a puppet for the Daley machine in Chicago and now they have hood winked the rest of this country. Examine the current political situation to 1960 when the Kennedy machine rose to power. If you don't like the way the Bush administration handles a war, just wait if Obama gets into power....They will line up to kick our ass because Osama, Joe and Nancy (aka the 3 blind mice) don't have a fucking clue as to handle what to do. If I didn't think we would be in a nuclear war in two years, I'd almost like to see Obama win. that way after the Democrats once again fail to meet any of their promises, we can elect some people who know how to stop the bad guysnot just point fingers!

"Oasama Obama "

People that can't spell his name correctly amuse me.

And your awareness of current events and how our country is governed is also illuminating.

Frank

@bluesky93 - 

i concur!

Equating giving guns to kids with giving them birth control.

Now I've heard it all.

Silliest. Metaphor. Ever.

Thank god those of us that have actually worked in public health are more intelligent about this issue than THAT.

Better yet, why not just tell them that the STORK brings babies?

You sound like my coworker whose solution is to tell his daughters he will give them $500 if they don't kiss a boy before they turn 18.

Yeah, that will go well, I'm SURE.

Of course statistics about birth control education and availability of contraception do attest to the fact that they reduce abortions, as well as STDs.

Not that the god squad really cares about that.

Maybe you can homeschool your kids and teach them that it is actually PRAYER that prevents pregnancy. And that holy people NEVER get STDs.

Gak. Back to the 18th century with you!

And um, good luck with your approach. Of course, we know you don't REALLY want to reduce abortions. What you want to do is control the lives and bodies of women.

FAIL

NEW YORK - Comprehensive sex education that includes discussion of birth control may help reduce teen pregnancies, while abstinence-only programs seem to fall short, the results of a U.S. survey suggest.

Using data from a 2002 national survey, researchers found that among more than 1,700 unmarried, heterosexual teens between 15 and 19 years old, those who'd received comprehensive sex ed in school were 60 percent less likely to have been pregnant or gotten someone pregnant than teens who'd had no formal sex education.

Meanwhile, there was no clear benefit from abstinence-only education in preventing pregnancy or delaying sexual intercourse, the researchers report in the Journal of Adolescent Health.

Non sequitur.

If I hadn't been born, I wouldn't be contemplating it.

And yes, I celebrate my life.

Bluesky, Dan, whatever, you and your followers scare the hell out of me. First of all, the government should never have a say in anything in our lives other than taxes. Our bodies, be it a woman or a man's should be theirs to do with what they want. You let one belief drive your lives, from sun up to sun down, just like other cultures that we look down upon. Your plight goes like this:

- In the midst of the falling of the twin towers, you and your picketing friends would be in the rubble with your signs
- Sitting at a neighborhood block party, you would be there asking where three of your neighbors are, only to find out they lost their homes due to this horrible economy
- What about the 4000+ soldiers that were killed and over 100,000 injured in an a war that we should have never started? I know, what about the babies? What about the fathers, the mothers, the sons and daughters?
- What about those adults and children in New Orleans that our current leadership could give a shit about? Laura Bush even admitted it during Katrina.
- What about the special interests, the rich. This is America and our government treats the poor and middle class like shit.

I am fortunate enough to be a US citizen living out of the country for two years and I pray that we can get our act together while I am way and maybe focus on what really impacts our lives everyday. Get your head out of your Roe vs Wade ass and look around the U.S., it has other issues too!

Isn't it funny how big brother will give us help to get the box for your TV next Feb if you are using an analog TV? We need the press, which is NOT biased in our homes we can not keep warm! How about some help heating my house!! We need that update of brainwashing here people so stop typing and go watch the news to find out all there is to know! GO, hurry up it's on now, your missing it, quick!!!

Why did NObama not look into the camera with the last debate like McCain did? Seemed like he had to carefully choose his words to please every voter, but that's just my opinion. A guy who can't salute the flag, take the American flag OFF his jet for a different one and not say the pledge is NOT the guy we need in the highest office!!! I wanted Ron Paul too, but we have to choose age before beauty here I guess.

I think Nobama leads a terrorist sleeper cell myself or is the antichrist, LOL He is a terrific speaker but that is all he is. Just my opinion here, relax I am middle class too!

shhhh, the war has not been big news lately ...it's a secret now, we are making progress and we are not supposed to know it I guess. I hear Bagdad wants a huge ferris wheel now! Forget CNN, let them do the weather, something alot more important. Let us do our own digging to find the truth! Oh yeah, did congress vote for the war? Did the banks give mortgages to people who could not afford them? My neighbor told his bank he couldn't do it and they talked him into it somehow and he lost his house too!! Must be GB's fault I guess. Gas is killing us here and other countries have been paying these prices for ages and we are still the lowest! Oh well.

Barack Hussein Obama is not half black. If elected, he would be the first Arab-American President, not the first black President. Barack Hussein Obama is 50% Caucasian from his mother's side and 43.75% Arabic and 6.25% African Negro from his father's side. While Barack Hussein Obama's father was from Kenya, his father's family was mainly Arabs. Barack Hussein Obama's father was only 12.5% African Negro and 87.5% Arab (his father's birth certificate even states he's Arab, not African Negro).

What does this mean? Maybe nothing. But, why is Obama trying to hide this? Why does he try to hide is middle name? Why does he try to hide the religious Muslim school he attented as a child in Indonesia? Why doesn't he set the record straight that he wouldn't be the first black President? Why so many cover-ups and hiding of the truth?

Further, at only 6.25% African Negro, would he even be the first President who was part black? Not at all! Our 3rd President, Thomas Jefferson was our first part black President. And he's not alone, Andrew Jackson, Abraham Lincoln, Warren Harding and Calvin Coolidge were also part black.

President Andrew Jackson was the son of an Irish woman who married a black man. Andrew Jackson was such a high percentage black that his oldest brother was sold as a slave!

President Abraham Lincoln was the illegitimate son of an African man, he had very dark skin and coarse hair and his mother also allegedly came from an Ethiopian tribe. His heritage fueled so much controversy that Lincoln was nicknamed "Abraham Africanus the First" by his opponents.

President Warren Harding never even denied claims that he was black, because he had black ancestors between both sets of parents and he attended Iberia College, a school founded to educate fugitive slaves.

President Calvin Coolidge was proud of his heritage and claimed his mother was dark because of mixed Indian ancestry. Coolidge's mother's maiden name was "Moor" and in Europe the name "Moor" was given to all blacks just as "Negro" was used in America.

Now here is a man I WOULD vote in!

HERE IS MY PLATFORM:

(1) 'Press 1 for English' is immediately banned. English is the official language; speak it or wait at the border until you can.

(2) We will immediately go into a two year isolationist posture to straighten out the country's attitude. NO imports, no exports.
We will use the 'Wal-Mart's policy, 'If we ain't got it, you don't need it.'

(3) When imports are allowed, there will be a 100% import tax on it.

(4) All retired military personnel will be required to man one of our many observation towers on the southern border. (six month tour) They will be under strict orders not to fire on SOUTHBOUND aliens.

(5) Social security will immediately return to its original state. If you didn't put nuttin in, you ain't gettin nuttin out. The president nor any other politician will not be able to touch it.


(6) Welfare - Checks will be handed out on Fridays at the end of the 40 hour school week and the successful completion of urinalysis and a passing grade.

(7) Professional Athletes --Steroids - The FIRST time you check positive you're banned for life.

(8) Crime - We will adopt the Turkish method, the first time you steal, you lose your right hand. There is no more life sentences. If convicted, you will be put to death by the same method you chose for your victim; gun, knife, strangulation, etc.

(9) One export will be allowed; Wheat, The world needs to eat. A bushel of wheat will be the exact price of a barrel of oil.

(10) All foreign aid using American taxpayer money will immediately cease, and the saved money will pay off the national debt and ultimately lower taxes. When disasters occur around the world, we'll ask the American people if they want to donate to a disaster fund, and each citizen can make the decision whether it's a worthy cause.

(11) The Pledge of Allegiance will be said every day at school and every day in Congress.

(12) The National Anthem will be played at all appropriate ceremonies, sporting events, outings, etc.

Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes but a vote for me will get you better than what you have, and better than what you're gonna get. Thanks for listening, and remember to write in my name on the ballot in November.
God Bless America !!!!!!!!!!!

Bill Cosby!!!!!!!!

@kylej3 - 

I don't engage in online debates with people that are so obviously insane.

But please, DO vote for Ron Paul. He needs all the help he can get.

Thanks.