Chris,

Its nice to see someone's declaration of faith not require the obfuscation and denial of the beauty, complexity and mystery of the natural world around us... no matter how we are graced with the ability to observe, contemplate, analyze, deduce and revel in our awareness of it.

That is the essence of my faith.

Frank

@qnetx - 

GQ, I would never say anything about how you believe, it is your decision. We are all on the wonderful journey of life, sometimes it's really bumpy, and sometimes things are wonderful. Gary I'm truly glad for you, you have worked hard for everything you have, and you have helped others which is very commendable. Frank I admire your fight, even though I don't agree with how you believe, I admit that I have gotten angry at times, but I've tried to be civil and respectful. I have really enjoyed this argument, because I wanted to know what someone who truly accepts the theory of evolution thinks about it, why they accept it. Frank, that is why I have asked all of questions, I wanted to know what you thought. Obviously I have enjoyed the sparring back and forth:):):)

Chriscrov - you are exactly right we can't persuade with words. The apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 2:4 (New International Version)

4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power,

Group hug! Group hug!

Kumbaya.....

LOL...Group hug:) Gary maybe you can fly us to the ranch for a group hug:):):)

But isn't it something how all the other religions require you to work or do something to obtain heaven or higher plane of living, whatever they call it?  Jesus is the only one who said He was the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father (God) but by Him.  Christianity is the only one to say that..everyone else says you have to work your way or do something. Jesus is the only one who said you don't have to work your way, you cannot work your way, only thru Him.  He is the only one to make that claim.

fiblau, to us it may mean chauvinistic but that is a man made term to describe their own arrogant will that is not in line with God's design...If you don't like His way then when you die and face Him at your judgement, you can ask Him why..but I don't think you will.

Tim, point them to Kent Hovind. He has an offer of $250,000.00 to ANYONE who can prove evolution..been that way for years and so far no one has won or can do it..not the scientists or anyone who has been challenged or comes to him...why?  Because it is a theory without proof.adptation is not evolution and dna does not evolve..a species cannot evolve into another species. 

"Tim, point them to Kent Hovind. He has an offer of $250,000.00 to ANYONE who can prove evolution"

Tim, will you do me the favor and explain to him that natural science doesn't PROVE things... I'm sure we at least agree on THAT after all this time, right?

"Because it is a theory without proof.adptation is not evolution and dna does not evolve..a species cannot evolve into another species. "

Sigh.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

@lightinspiration - 

Kent Hovind is in prison for tax fraud,I don't think he would be able to pay the $250,000 now.

But I'll pay for a week at Gary's ranch if you can provide me with proof of God. :)

Frank

@TimRayPhoto - and the validity of that is up in the air. He was told he did not have to pay employee taxes if he told them they are responsible for their own taxes.  When my wife worked she had to pay her own taxes, the companies never paid them..that is federal law..they can do that...they have been after Gary for years and his conviction may be overturned.  For all the years that offer has been out there and no one has been able to collect it, I don't think he is in any danger of having to pay it anytime soon.  You need to watch his video of the Bible and Dinosaurs..he does not copyright his stuff and said we are free to copy it and pass it around so I'll send you a copy if you want it.

Frank, the mere fact that you are still alive and not at the judgement is proof God is very patient with you and letting you live to give you all the chances possible for you to repent.

"For all the years that offer has been out there and no one has been able to collect it, I don't think he is in any danger of having to pay it anytime soon. "

We are both equally as likely to have someone meet the terms of our bet. :)

"Furthermore, it would be impossible to prove gravity under the same conditions as Hovind requires[49], and furthermore absolutely impossible to prove claims made in the Bible."

hahahhahahaha

FAIL

@lightinspiration - 

"But isn't it something how all the other religions require you to work or do something to obtain heaven or higher plane of living, whatever they call it? Jesus is the only one who said He was the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father (God) but by Him. Christianity is the only one to say that..everyone else says you have to work your way or do something. Jesus is the only one who said you don't have to work your way, you cannot work your way, only thru Him. He is the only one to make that claim."

Not totally true. How do you know that other religions do not claim the same thing? Have you studied them all? Many Christians will answer when asked (as well as other people in other religions who do not want to study other religions) that theirs is sufficient, they are completely fulfilled by it, and need not go anywhere else. Then, it's easy to make false claims, because they don't know anything different. I will not bother referring links to prove the point, because I doubt that people who stick to their guns, no matter what, do not click on them...:)

Also, it depends what you mean by "work your way" or "do something". Is prayer, doing good deeds, having active faith, going to church "doing something"? I would think so.

Zen monks for example, practice (sitting, walking, daily chore) meditation. Is that doing nothing? Some spiritual guides say that no matter what you do consciously, it won't make any difference to reach God. Others say that reaching God cannot be accomplished by thinking about it.

Most people who make claims about how great Christianity is (I am basically a Christian, too, btw), and how Christianity is the only religion that said this or that, and the only Way, have not looked around or studied how those claims came about - most of the times borrowed from religions that came before it. It does not really matter where it came from, except one should be careful when making such claims that only shows ignorance or lack of information in the matter. A bit like claiming that Americans invented basketball. Who invented it? A Canadian, eh? James A. Naismith, to be exact...:)

Who invented Jesus? Long story. Who invented Christianity? Not Jesus. For sure, not the ones who ever met Jesus, face to face, at least on the physical plane. Those who met him in the white tunnel, and have a feeling of walking beside him every day, well...that's another story.

I've studied enough of them to make my determination..who invented Jesus?  Jesus was talked about back in the old testament, in fact there is a reference that Jesus made or had  a big hand in creation...prayer is not a work...doing good works, some churches say you have to be baptized, that is a work...the bible says you cannot work your way. For by Grace are ye saved thru Faith, not of yourselves it is the grace of God..not of works...no one can basically be a Christian. Jesus said you have to be born again..you cannot ride the fence rail..either you are or you aren't there are no half ways...just because many so called Christians say things contrary to the bible does not make them right...everything needs to be weighed against the backdrop of the scriptures..what do they say?  Our opinion doesn't matter...I'd rather get God's opinion in the scriptures.  I had a near death experience 3 years ago and so did my wife about 15 years ago.  And I have spoken to people who was at the bedside of dying loved ones who would describe what they were seeing and hearing the music in heaven and see the angels coming to get them..yes my dear friend..Jesus Christ is real..Heaven is real and only those who are born of the blood of Christ will make it.

"Heaven is real and only those who are born of the blood of Christ will make it."

Gruesome.

I'll take a pass.

Frank

He who knows, and knows that he knows, is wise...follow him.
He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep...awaken him.
He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is willing...teach him
He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool...shun him.

Although the righteous indignation and certitude always amuses me!

There are plenty of us out here who think your self-referential logic makes no sense at all.

"The Bible is the Truth"
"How do you know this?"
"The Bible says so."

We call that a circular reference. By that logic, I am the truth. Why? Because I said so.

Yay!

Frank, we gotta admit that some of the things that are said, such as:
"For by Grace are ye saved thru Faith"
"it is the grace of God"
"Jesus said you have to be born again"

...are relatively true. Where the problem occurs is in the interpretation of what it really means. The sad thing is that some Christians will not see how close their meanings are to other religions.

FOR LIGHTINSPIRATION
"...because many so called Christians say things contrary to the bible does not make them right."

Neither do Christians who claim that there are no contradictory passages in the Bible, and that it is the Word of God, make them right. I would believe that if God had wanted to talk to men, He would have used a communication method superior to the limitation of words. He's God. He could certainly invent a better communication tool than a book. Think about it. He can create what He wants. Why use such a low level of communication? Why could He not have created a common language that everyone could understand instantly and not need for someone to interpret for us on TV on in the pulpit? Why not have created something that did not need a revision such as the KJB? Can it be that God created man that created a SEMBLANCE of God, and alledgedly made Him speak through human words created by man? It's a thought.

"everything needs to be weighed against the backdrop of the scriptures"
Who says? And if so, which ones? Some scriptures suggest taking more than one wife, others to make animal sacrifices to please God. What should we take, what should we drop to properly weight everything?

"I'd rather get God's opinion in the scriptures."
Yes, I would like that too. In fact, it's about time that He comes down and gives his opinion about the scriptures. It may set some things straight, align everybody in the same, and true direction so we don't fumble in darkness like blind men.

If you rather mean that God IS giving HIS opinion IN THE BIBLE, then I'm a little disappointed. Opinions are not necessarily facts. Opinions are based on judgment, personal experience, values and belief sets. If you'd said "I'd rather get God's facts in the Bible, then, that would be different. However, some facts in the Bible seem to differ depending on whose Gospel your read.

"Jesus Christ is real..Heaven is real and only those who are born of the blood of Christ will make it."
That's as real a belief as you can create for yourself. I give you that. The blood of Christ sounds gruesome, though. I'd rather be born in the Light of Christ, it's less messy.

As far as affirming that Heaven is real - you're just repeating what someone else has said, and many others before that. I won't ask you to prove it, because you can't. Since the mind has the capacity to create what it wants, YOU WILL go to your created Heaven. I have no doubt about that. So you affirming that Heaven is real IS true...for you, and others who believe the same thing. Does it make it true for everybody? Nah. Other people have other created certitudes. It's all in the mind. If you can perceive it, it's in the mind - YOUR mind, and no one else's.

"I had a near death experience 3 years ago and so did my wife about 15 years ago. And I have spoken to people who was at the bedside of dying loved ones who would describe what they were seeing and hearing the music in heaven and see the angels coming to get them"

Seems like near death experiences, and being raised from the dead are part of the package that goes with the belief. Some would say it's fashionable to make such claims. It sorta gives you status, and possibly makes you the envy of other believers who did not have such experiences and just who can't wait to have the same experiences to be part of the inner sanctum.

I do believe that near-death experiences do occur, but it ain't a Christian exclusivity. People from other religions see and hear other things. Some of those experiences are brain hallucinations because the person truly believes that it must happen in order to get to Heaven. When you truly want something it will manifest in different ways to satisfy you, either in wakefulness hallucinations or dreaming.

So, the people you mentioned probably saw what they saw and heard, but it does not mean that it could have been another person's perception standing besides them with a different belief set. I know that Tim believes that he was raised from the dead. Can't deny him that belief, and subjective experience. A Muslim might have seen Muhammad. A Buddhist, Bhudda, a Hindu, Krishna. Get it? Those are symbols. When you see those, you ain't there yet. It's a symbolic passage. They are messengers, not the destination. They show you how to get "there", because they claim they've been there, themselves. But, they are not THE "there", whatever you make of the "there" to be while living in your physical body and mind....:)

As a preface, I am entering these comments before having read any of the other comments, so repetition is at least possible, if not likely. So, I will give my immediate and gut reaction to Gary's provocative, evokative, questions. First of all, anyone who would claim to answer the questions with full specificity and authority would be seen as very arrogant and foolish. Gary asks these questions, fully knowing and expecting the "fight" and controversy that will ensue. I am not going to even attempt to defend God, or explain the intricacies and issues of why God killing His only Son is not the same as Gary killing a person. The Bible clearly explains and reveals to those of faith that the valid and worthy reason is to reveal the true Glory of God to the Universe. Our God is a giving, loving and totally other's focused. One is born, and that person will either fight and shake their fist at God for their entire lives, or they will mercifully be brought to a point where they will acknowledge and worship the only One who is worthy to be worshiped.

They will either worship the Creator or the creature created by the Creator. The annoying thing about Gary's questions is the smugness with which they are delivered. Gary, you ask these questions as if you are the first to think of them, and that you somehow were smart enough to discover the inconsistencies of God. It is amazing to think of the fact that, though you mock and criticize God, and those that profess belief in His death and resurrection, He died in your place and took even those sins in Himself when He died on the cross. The very people who were spitting on Him, when He carried the cross, were created by His omipotence and omniscience. He gives breath to every one of us. You are to be pitied if you never come to the point where you know that there is Someone to thank for your success -- besides yourself. One day, every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. And then your questions will be seen in their true light.

I was born into a Jewish family and was taught that God is One, and when I professed that Jesus was the Messiah, it resulted in alienation from some in my family. It is also pertinent that the Bible reveals that the natural man cannot see and understand the things of the spirit, and it ultimately is/was the Spirit of God within my heart that gave and gives me the assurance and confidence that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the One true, only God, and that He came to the earth as Jesus to redeem those who believe. You have the freedom and liberty to mock believers, and the doctrines of sovereignty vs. free will, but you don't have liberty to do that without consequence. I will pray for you and Melissa, as I am sure other believers on this blog will, that you one day will know the Savior who died for you.

Gary,

(I don't have time to read all the other posts so sorry if this has been said.)

Dude, this is NOT a photograph! It is truly an artist's conception. And quite a funny one at that; it's SO innocent and naive!

Did it come from an LDS/Mormon website? The style of the illustration reminds me of their kinds of work. (No offence meant.)

Terry Thomas...
the photographer
Atlanta, Georgia USA
http://TerryThomasPhotos.GooglePages.com

@fjblau - 

Frank, you are doing exactly what you accused me of doing, when I was arguing evolution and origin sciences with you, you accused me of not arguing scientifically, and that science must be argued scientifically, yet you are applying your logical scientific argument to Faith in God. Why do you think it is necessary to prove or disprove the Bible, or prove or disprove that God even exists, if it isn't even necessary in science to prove or disprove the theory of evolution, the origin of life, and the universe. As a Christian I have chosen to put my faith in Jesus as my Lord and Savior and that God created the universe and all that is in it, it is not necessary for me to prove God exists and if I spent all of my time doing that, then I wouldn't have time to do what He created me to do, to love Him with all that is within me, and to love my neighbor. You and evolutionary scientists argue that the Bible is a myth because evolution is accepted science and that evidence is in favor of evolution. Even though creationists have the same evidence as evolution, it is all in the interpretation, the evolutionists looks at certain similarities between species and assumes that one must have evolved from the other (I know this is a simplification, but hear me out), and creationists look at the very same evidence and consider that the same designer, created both creatures and thus there would be similarities within creation. You see it is the same evidence, but viewed differently because of our presuppositions. Yet according to peer review standards of the scientific community only one presupposition is allowed, now even you would admit that evolution is not actually accepted fact, but is still just a theory or we wouldn't have been wasting our time arguing this would we.

I've got to go, I will write more on this later....

I've got a headache from reading all this stuff! Frank, you need to take a break and Tim (my Christian Brother) there are some people like Frank that we will never be able to get through to. His mind is made up, he's an adult now and when he dies and is standing before the throne of GOD, then and only then he know the truth.......but it will be to late...judgement was already set by his own words and actions while he was alive. But Frank, you can change all that.

Frank, God loves you, he wants you to find him again, on your own, you know what is needed to be saved, your eternal future is in your hands and your beliefs with either condem you or save you. I would like to see you in heaven one day so we could look back on all this and smile.

Randall

You are confusing a philosophical discussion about the supernatural with one about a theory in Natural Science. The "problem" if you will, with christianity, (IN MY OPINION) is that you will NEVER reconcile a literal belief if the bible with natural science. Why you keep TRYING is really and truly beyond me... but there is ZERO observable, physical evidence that supports a literal interpretation of the christian creation myth.

You say it is "all in the interpretation", but that's not really being intellectually honest. Because creationists don't even BOTHER to interpret the observable facts in a consistent way. To natural scientists, that is the beauty of the evolutionary theory; ALL of the observable data we have found and CONTINUE TO FIND is consistent with the theory. That is why I keep asking you questions like "how do you define information?" and "how do you explain 9 different sciences coming to the same conclusion?"... because those are based on OBSERVATIONS.... if you just ignore them, well that to me is blasphemy.

Of course I admit that Evolution is a theory. But I am not sure the word "theory" means what you think it does. In natural science, a theory is something that has OBSERVABLE EVIDENCE supporting it.
And evolution is a theory that has probably more evidence supporting it than any other theory in the field. Creationism is not just "another theory", because it does not even meet the most basic criteria of a theory: observable evidence consistent with a hypothesis.

You are wrong about peer review too... it can have as many presuppositions as you care to put forth... but with a caveat... you don't get to just put forth any old idea without the methods and evidence to SUPPORT your idea. THAT is why you don't read about "creationism" in peer-reviewed literature. It is not a theory with any observable evidence to support it.

Of course, if you disagree with a theory, as I have said here before, you are ALWAYS free to dispute it. In fact, that is the essence of science. But you have to dispute it using the same science that we all operate in. That means, no supernatural arguments (natural science doesn't concern itself with it), no Arguments from Incredulity (they are not science) and no other in a list of logical fallacies that creationists use to no avail. Anything you suggest to do what we call "falsify" a given theory must be open (no secret black boxes), using accepted scientific definitions (like "information") and must most of all be OBSERVABLE and REPEATABLE. If you cannot do these things, you will never even get a point in the game of natural science.

In a nutshell, that is why I debate this with the, um, passion that I do. It IS my spiritual belief. Much like yours, which is admirable, believe me... But if we come back to what you say about how you believe god created all the natural laws, etc.. it is even MORE mystifying why you wouldn't embrace evolution and ANYTHING we can discover about it, as a beautiful, elegant, consistent, intellectually challenging, inspiring witness to the loving intentions of a spiritual creator.... and stop arguing AGAINST it.

But yes, I know where the rub is... its that bible thing. A book. Written by men who didn't have the centuries of scientific progress we have made since they were alive. A book whose ideas and stories DIRECTLY conflict with the observable world today. (Ignoring, of course, the fact that it conflicts with ITSELF in places too :)

I can't really help you there. I see the bible as a mythological record of man's attempts to place himself in the context of the spiritual and natural world. Wrestling with many of the same eternal issues that we still deal with today. But to ascribe infallible truth to something written by men, well, that is heresy to me.

I admire your faith, I really do. But it is not the same faith that I have, that we can both agree on... and if we are just agreeing to disagree, that is fine with me too. But like you, it is also my belief that I am a witness to my faith. And as such, when someone blasphemes it without basis, I am likely to issue passionate rebuttals based on my beliefs AND my observations.

Peace,

Frank

Randall,

I don't need to be found. I am not lost.

But thanks for the good wishes.

Frank