On question 2. I don't know, I'm not God. Because he decided is my best answer. I suppose in heaven we could ask :)
Gavin Seim

Man's concept of creation by an omniescent, all powerful, God raises a lot of questions and is filled with contradictions as Gary points out. The main question in my mind is WHY? The whole story sounds like a sick soap-opera game by some twisted mind. Why go to all that trouble to create such a drama? If one has the omniescent power than why not just make everything work the right way from the start. Tolkien's sagas of Middle Earth are starting to sound just as believable.

I also enjoy Carlin's and Lewis Black's diatribes on religion. They also point out some of the underlying silliness.

We don't know if what Adam and Eve ate an apple. It doesn't say what kind of fruit it was. "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it." Genesis 3:6
We are not God, so we don't have all the answers, but He provided the Bible which answers every question we NEED to know.
Sure, we want to know because He made us inquisitive, but we are not God.
With regard to free will, I don't know why He gave us a mind of our own to choose Him or to not choose Him, but we have choice.
The angels were created with choice as well. He is God and I am not, and I hope to ask Him why we have a free will.
I suspect that love is not truly love unless it is a choice born from some sort of sacrifice.
We have to give up sin, which can be fun short-term, in order to follow God.
Of course, He gives us the power to live for Him.
And why did the Triune (three in one) God send Jesus to be born, live and die?
A perfect sacrifice. It was not killing, it was a willing sacrifice. Jesus could've stepped out of that situation long before He was killed because He was God, but He went through it because He knew we needed a perfect sacrifice.

God gave us minds to think out these questions, so I believe it's okay to ask them, but be prepared to accept God as He is with your unanswered questions in tow.
He is God and we are not.
Job had a whole lot of questions about why God allowed Satan to strike him and his whole family down. I have those same questions. At the end of the book of Job, God doesn't answer Job. What God does is give Job his credentials. He says to Job basically that I am God and you are not. Trust me. He then proceeded to bless Job twice as much as before.
Job 38:1-14
1 Then the Lord answered Job from the whirlwind:

2 “Who is this that questions my wisdom
with such ignorant words?
3 Brace yourself like a man,
because I have some questions for you,
and you must answer them.

4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell me, if you know so much.
5 Who determined its dimensions
and stretched out the surveying line?
6 What supports its foundations,
and who laid its cornerstone
7 as the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

8 “Who kept the sea inside its boundaries
as it burst from the womb,
9 and as I clothed it with clouds
and wrapped it in thick darkness?
10 For I locked it behind barred gates,
limiting its shores.
11 I said, ‘This far and no farther will you come.
Here your proud waves must stop!’

12 “Have you ever commanded the morning to appear
and caused the dawn to rise in the east?
13 Have you made daylight spread to the ends of the earth,
to bring an end to the night’s wickedness?
14 As the light approaches,
the earth takes shape like clay pressed beneath a seal;
it is robed in brilliant colors.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%2038;&version=51;

"1) how come in the photo below they are wearing Banana Republic, and not Fig Leaves?" Now is that a photo of Adam and Eve? I don't think so.

"1a) If Adam could be tempted to eat an apple, then how come the tiger in the background wasn't tempted to eat Adam and Eve?"

"2) Why would God make man subject to temptation, only to know that he would fail (omniscience and all that) and then make man imperfect only to forgive him by bringing his own son down to earth to die to pay back the debt for the original sin, but then if the Father and Son are both one and the same, then basically God kills himself to atone for the sin, but killing is a sin? (Thou shalt not kill) - So, is killing yourself not a sin? Or is killing your son not a sin, if it pays back a debt? A debt that was caused by an imperfection that you knew would exist? If killing yourself, or your son - who also happens to be you - is not a sin, then is man really made of God's own image? Is Osama Bin Laden a man? If so, then was he made in God's own image?"

When God made man, He made him perfect. He made the first two people, Adam and Eve, and placed them in the Garden of Eden where they had a special, very beautiful relationship with God. When He made them, He gave them a choice. He wanted their love—not as a programmed response, but as a reasoned act. They chose to rebel against God. This rebellion is called sin. All sin comes under the banner of rebellion against God and His will.

As a result of that rebellion in Eden, a number of things happened. First, man was estranged from God. That separation is called spiritual death. On its own, the final effect of this would have been living forever in our sinful bodies, eternally separated from God. Imagine living with Hitler and Stalin forever! Imagine living in an incorrigible, sinful state for eternity. But something else happened. Romans 5:12 tells us that as a result of man’s actions came sin, and as a result of sin came death; but not just spiritual death, as some theologians claim. To confirm this, one needs only read 1 Corinthians 15:20 where Paul talks about the physical death of the first Adam and the physical death of Christ, the last Adam. Or read Genesis 3, where God expelled Adam and Eve from the Garden so that they would not eat of the Tree of Life and live forever. Physical death as well as spiritual death resulted from their sin.

How could God sin, is it possible that He can rebel against His own self? The law of sin came after the fall of man, Adam and Eve had no such law as they were perfect before rebelling against God.

God gave everyone a free will. He is not going to make you serve Him. He sent his Son to die for us, thats how much He loves us. Jesus sits at the right hand of God now. When God made man and man Chose (there's that freewill again God gave us) to eat from the tree of life, man already knew the consequences. Adam and Eve knew they did wrong. God and Satan never made them eat from the tree. God told Adam and Eve the consequences before hand. Then Satan lied (because he is the father of all lies) to persuade them that it would be ok. Satan told them that they would be like gods. If you think this story is silly, think about your own life now. How many times are you tempted or persuaded to do something you know it's not right to do. But, you do it anyway. You say to yourself, who cares, it's not going to matter. It will be ok. Then, because of your actions, a family is torn apart, or someone is killed, or you even helped persuade someone to start that first line of drugs. The bible says the wages of sin is death. God made us all, everyone, in his own image, he did not give us his same power. You chose your own life and what path it takes. For every action, there is a consequence. Every word in the Holy Bible is true.
There's no unbelievers in hell. There were three demons talking with satan one day. Satan asked "What can we do to get people to not serve God?" One demon said "We can tell them that the Bible is not true."
Satan said "No, we have tried that. It didn't work."Another demon said we can tell them people will laugh at them. satin said we have tried that also it didn't work either. Then the last demon stood up and said lets just tell them to wait. Satin said thats it when God is calling them to come to His Son and be saved we will tell them they have plenty of time JUST WAIT! You're not promised another tomorrow. You'll never know when your end is.

On the subject of Tempation:  Tiger vs. Man

Man was given the ability to think, reason, and choose right from wrong.  Man can be tempted.  Satan deliberately tempted Man (and woman).

Tigers can't be tempted.  They don't think in moral abstracts such as right and wrong.  If a tiger eats a man ...he didn't do anything wrong, he's just being a tiger.

As to why the tiger didn't eat Man in the garden?  Good question - ask God.  The garden was either a very special place with special rules, or a metaphor for a morality story.  In either case, the message is the same.  Man didn't follow God's rules (because we don't like to follow the rules) and we have to face the consequences.

Oh brother here we go again.

Banana Republic had a sale and the gap wasnt around yet/

The Tiger wouldnt be caught dead eating someone in those clothes.  A bridal dress and tux he would of been all over them.

Hello, remember Easter Sunday?  Gods victory over death. April fools, I AM is not dead.

No eProp for a dumb question.

"Every word in the Holy Bible is true"

That statement is only potentially true for the 33% of the 6 Billion people on Earth. 66% of the population would not agree.

Then there is the whole matter of those that believe in some aspects of the writing or the variations as accepted by the other Abrahamic based religions. Even considering the major Abrahamic based religions, you still get only 50% of the world's population. The other 50% would dispute that fact outright.

So the statement is only true for those that believe in that statement. Others seek a different truth or more convincing proof.

@qnetx - 

"Every word in the Holy Bible is true"

"That statement is only potentially true for the 33% of the 6 Billion people on Earth. 66% of the population would not agree."

What do you mean by true? Accepted truth by people? Or actual truth? Accepting something as truth doesn't make it true does it? I happen to believe the Bible is the Word of God and that it is the ultimate truth. You don't have to believe that, but if the Bible actually is completely true then not believing doesn't make it untrue, it just isn't true in your mind.

Let me give you an analogy, if you have someone on trial for murder and for arguments sake this person is actually innocent, they never murdered anyone, but the prosecutor presented a case that was believable to the jury and they accept it as truth, and convict the person. Now, was it actually true that the person was guilty.

I am sure of many things about my faith in the Trinity, and this is one of them... God would have NEVER given Eve Farrah Fawcett hair!

Gary, if you're really curious about this stuff, and if you're legitimately doing research on the Bible, I highly recommend Lee Strobel as an author. He was the legal editor for the Chicago Sun Times and did a tremendous amount of research into many of the scientific and factual questions from his athiestic perspective. It is very good reading, as he lays it out in the format of a legal case with prosecution/defense style arguments.

TimRayPhoto,

The source of the truth is the only one that "truly" knows. Therefore, in the case of the trial only the murderer knows the truth. In the case of the Bible then, only God would know the truth. To all others, it is just a theory or speculation.

And I am not trying to prove Tim wrong.

Science doesn't do that.

Science makes theories and shows evidence for them. This evidence either supports or refutes the theory and maybe a new theory is proposed based on it.

Tim has neither proposed a theory, not submitted evidence of a theory.

The only other alternative for Tim (and creationists) is to falsify, scientifically, the theory of evolution.

You can't do that without stating your falsifying evidence, having it peer-reviewed, and submitting it for examination.

Tim (and the creationists) have not done this to date.

The theory of evolution is one of the most tested, consistent theories in natural science. Every new thing we discover about science fits neatly into the theory, even as it suggests new mechanisms for the process (which does not falsify the theory itself).

There has never been, here or elsewhere, peer-reviewed evidence that falsifies the theory of natural selection. None.

If they just believed what they believed on faith and didn't feel the need to use science to try and disprove science, we would have a lot less posts on the subject, IMHO.

My faith in god is in no way in conflict with any possible scientific discovery. I have nothing but pity for those whose faith is dependent on science being "wrong".

In a meta way,

Frank

By the way, as St. Thomas Aquina discussed in the "Summa Theologica, all of this debate between those that believe in the bible and those that don't is really moot since the outcome of the argument has already been decided. In his famous work on Christian theology he pointed out that; "If our opponent believes nothing of divine revelation, there is no longer any means of proving the articles of faith by reasoning, but only of answering his objections—if he has any—against faith"

For those that don't have any objections against faith, futher diatribe is therefore not necessary.

I'm curious how many of you out there don't have a faith or belief system (regardless of what you believe in)? Even atheists have a belief system.

I have one.

@qnetx - 

So, you admit that there is an actual truth no matter we may think it is?

@fjblau - 

"The theory of evolution is one of the most tested, consistent theories in natural science. Every new thing we discover about science fits neatly into the theory, even as it suggests new mechanisms for the process (which does not falsify the theory itself)."

Tell me how every new thing we discover about science fits neatly into the theory of evolution? Explain that for us.

Adam and Eve - symbol for duality. The Tree of Life are the 7 chakras (http://www.adishakti.org/subtle_system/chakras.htm), and the serpent is the Kundalini (femine energy, btw) (referred also as the Holy Spirit) or the power that energizes those chakras situated along the spine right up to the brain and triggers the "born again" in spirit, also the return of Christ - the could vision and all His Glory being in the head, not on a physical cloud at 1,000 feet in the air. ‘The Kingdom of God is within you’ (Luke 17:21).(http://adishakti.org/subtle_system/kundalini.htm)

And...The Poet-Saints of all traditions have written & sung of classical experiences of the energy of the Tree of Life. One of these poets was Kabir ..

Lightning flashes without any clouds.
There is no sun, but there is radiant light.
The Pearl in that realm forms without a shell.

There is no sound and yet, the Word resounds.
All light is put to shame by the Lord's bright radiance.
The indestructible, unfathomable lies beyond.

Which is the experience that people live when the Holy Spirit has awakened them and they become Christ-like themselves.

The Hindus call that rise of energy Kundalini. The Japanese call it "ki", the Chinese "chi" and in Christianity, it is known as "The Holy Spirit". In Mexico, what Christians term The Holy Spirit was worshiped as the serpent-god "Quetzalcoatl"; the Kung people of the Kalahari called this same power "n/um". Communion with it is the essence of the waft and weave of the Sacred Tantra of the Tibetan Tradition and the realization of the Toltec nagual in touch with his Dreamer. http://www.anunda.com/enlightenment/divine.htm

Ever wonder why the symbol of medecine is the Caduceus? Two serpents intertwined around a staff. Some people say that only one serpent should appear (the Kundalini Symbol), and that the staff represents the spine, the wings the Holy Spirit - thus the rise of the serpent power along the spine towards the Holy Spirit or lack or dis-ease, not only physical, but as well spiritual. However, symbolizing two snakes or serpents, could symbolize balance of energy. It is believed by a lot of people that all dis-eases are caused by imbalance along the charkas. Heal the chakras, heal the person. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus

God gave souls the power to create (I Corinthians 15:45, “The first man Adam was made a living soul.”) in the physical world, and experience it with the senses through a physical body. Genesis 1:26-27 clearly states that God decided to make man (male and female) “in His own image”. However, man created things that brought him/her away from its divine origin, believing that creation was the truth. Jesus went through the same temptation through his spiritual ascension, but did not fall prey to it.

The original sin is that souls became so engrossed in the physical world, and enjoying it, that they forgot their origin and their way back in a conscious manner. In Genesis 3 the serpent tells Adam and Eve "you will be like God." In other words, be able to create. However, consciousness is trapped in matter. "Can't see the forest for the trees."

Even in death, the soul can be unconscious of its origin, and can get tangled up in interpretation of Heaven and Hell, and anywhere in between. "In my Father's house, there are many mansions." Free will is the ability to create for yourself your own reality. It does not means that it is the right one, although you may believe with all your heart that it is, and be ready to fight for your mental beliefs with your physical life, as some radicals do to this day.

When the man Jesus becomes enlightened, who is the guide? The serpent. The serpent rises in Jesus at different stages or his awareness (though his chakras), and since each energy center contains different powers that could be used for ego and personal gain, Jesus does not fall into the temptation to use them, and get caught again at different levels of spirituality that give spiritual powers, but rather chooses to go all the way and become Christ (Ajna, the Christ center, portal to "Heaven", bliss or complete spiritual awareness), the son of God. But even there, Jesus is not totally "liberated" or "aware". He knows that something higher exists, he felt it, but it cannot be explained with words. He must give his "life" to go all the way. This is where the plot thickens. How to explain that to people who are caught up in their own religions and interpretations, and are willing to kill others who oppose them?

It can be interpreted in different ways: physical death, and physical rebirth; or giving up ego, and all interpretations of physical reality, thoughts, ideas, to be reborn into Oneness where physical and mental duality have completely disappeared, thus making interpretation of the physical and spiritual worlds through words impossible. The body continues to live physically, however the mental faculties have completely disconnected to make place for direct connection to all creation. Instead of thinking ahead of what one has to do, one knows what to do as it's needed to be done. No more rehashing of the past, no more thinking of the future, nor more arguing on forums to help Gary create traffic..:). It's the absolute present moment. Bernadette Roberts is a good read about this.

So, God "sent" messengers, prophets, and gurus, and others to tell people how to get back to their origin, and make them realize that all physical matter is but an illusion of REALITY, that they created themselves to believe. There are different ways of going back, i.e. becoming aware of what is already there, and not "out there". Some religions keep people un-aware of their origin through doggone belief that the messenger IS the message, thus weaving a whole bunch of words, beliefs, religions, myths, rituals, "holier-than-thou" attitude around words - just words created by men to explain the unexplainable.

Interesting read about Adam, Eve, and the serpent, and the possibility of forgeries related to Paul' letters in the Bible: Timothy 1, and 2.
Extract: "Learn in silence with all humility. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet women will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty." (1 Timothy 2:11-15) Apparently, this was forged to conform to the beliefs of some individuals. Women ARE SO DANGEROUS. Let's keep them under control...:)
http://www.southerncrossreview.org/14/pagels.htm

Here's an interesting explanation of 2012. http://adishakti.org/mayan_end_times_prophecy_12-21-2012.htm

Again, all this is but a pale attempt to explain things, which can only be experienced subjectively up to a point. The proof of that is that a lot of poeple will think that it makes some sense, while others will condemn it as heresy. As long as we remain in the realm of explanations, no one holds absolute truth.

"There has never been, here or elsewhere, peer-reviewed evidence that falsifies the theory of natural selection. None."

Frank there is a difference between natural selection and evolution.

evolution is the supposed transformation of one life form into another by mutation, natural selection is when a life form becomes extinct due to climate, crippling mutations, inadequate food supplies, disease, etc...

"Frank there is a difference between natural selection and evolution."

hahahhah Tim, please explain it to us! Please!

Demonstrate that you actually know!

"Tell me how every new thing we discover about science fits neatly into the theory of evolution? Explain that for us."

No one here needs to go through all this again. "Repeat everything I have been posting on the other thread" is not something anyone needs. I'll make it simpler for you:

Provide ONE piece of peer-reviewed evidence that falsifies the theory of evolution. Just one. Please include references.

Frank

"evolution is the supposed transformation of one life form into another by mutation, natural selection is when a life form becomes extinct due to climate, crippling mutations, inadequate food supplies, disease, etc..."

At best, woefully incomplete.

But if that's your (incorrect) understanding, your (incorrect) conclusions make a lot more sense now.

GIGO,

Frank

Like I said there are no unbelivers in HELL! The Bible is 100% true because God said it was. God said it and I belive it!

"Evolution can be precisely defined as any change in the frequency of alleles within a gene pool from one generation to the next."

"Natural selection is the process by which favorable heritable traits become more common in successive generations of a population of reproducing organisms, and unfavorable heritable traits become less common, due to differential reproduction of genotypes."

For those of you that care. :)