could i be a successful evangelist?melissalee7405 made the…

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Posted by: garyfong1 Original: 6/8/2008 12:07 PM Views: 3560 Comments: 45 eProps: 28 Read Comments Post a Comment Back to Your Xanga Site

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2 eProps from: richardj7 phoetic brian_garyfonginc opensourcephoto TimRayPhoto gmahler5th lightinspiration missycarl airplanenuts Tiffy_girl_ohio bluesky93 fjblau dgrove21 pbjphoto

Sunday, June 08, 2008

could i be a successful evangelist?

melissalee7405 made the following comment - and this is not the first time I have heard these words. They are very flattering and honestly I feel very much like a regular person... so probably I'm not worthy or ready for something important. Would I make an awesome believer? Is my life blessed?

Am I being called for a higher purpose? Because here's a sincere question, and I am asking as the businessman. If I all of a sudden, "saw the light" - do you think I would be a successful preacher? Do I have what it takes? Could I then have a private jet? It would have to at least be a G5 because I would rather fly commercial than in like a Falcon, or Lear, or G3.

This may be something worth considering. I'm bouncing the potential of the upside to this enterprise with my ops manager. The reason is this - if I compare myself with the other hyper tele-evangelists, my pitch actually would be quite compelling. The non-believer who suddenly "gets it" but under the new prosperity message - how great would it be that I'm a self-made person?

Posted 6/8/2008 12:07 PM - 3560 Views - 28 eProps - 45 comments

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And, here we go again...:) Let me give another interpretation of what it means. It has nothing to do with money wealth. Matthew 5:3 - KJV: Blessed are the poor in SPIRIT: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Not their bank account. What is "spirit"? Different definitions:

• Mental attitude such as being in good spirits, or being in the right mood, being in high spirits
• Seat of emotions and character
• Reference to the soul, such as seeking harmony between body and spirit
• A ghost
• The Holy Spirit
• The leading spirit in the conference: reference to a person who was the main element of the conference's success
• He acted in a spirit of self-respect, not defiance
• The rule had been broken in spirit, if not in letter
• Spirits: brandy, whiskey, gin, or rum
• Spirits of turpentine
• The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak (Matt. 26:41)

My take on it? If "spirit" means the seat of emotions, and character that are based on where they reside, i.e. the mind, by being poor in spirit would mean to stop quoting bible verses, interpretations galore, stop thinking, rationalizing, comparing, judging - simply quiet the mind so that it becomes "poor", and then be able to enter the Kingdom of God, or whatever the popular description is in different religions of that "place".

The "rich men" could be interpreted as being people obsessed with money matters, and self-importance - things that could detract those men from being able to totally quiet their minds, because of their concerns. Managing money could be a full-time job. The more you have, the more you have to manage, and it could be possible that less time is given to quieting the mind. However, poor people could also be obsessed with survival, and ways to make money. So, although poor money-wise, they could be "rich" is obsessive thinking.

That is why "poor in spirit" is a fairer description of what needs to be done to access the "place".

I also make the link with:
“Be still, and know that I am God” (Psalm 46:10)

Be still, for me, also means being "poor in spirit" - shut the mind up, turn the ego off. The "know" in "know that I am God", is not something that can be totally explained or described, because there are not words to describe it. Even in the Bible, which can only make allusions to it, it is described through analogies, anecdotes, stories, fairy tales, the use of animal descriptions, hearsay, etc. and it does a poor job of it because explained by men - even with good intentions

Some of the descriptions 2,000 years ago, used words, and phrases that people could associate with in their time. Today, some of it makes little sense. Besides, disciples sometimes communicated by code, like secret societies do, even today. Some of the problems come from trying to decipher it with our current reality.

You would think that after all these centuries, the literal translators of the Bible would have convinced everyone on earth, through verifiable examples, that the Bible is THE book of all books, and is THE MAP to follow to go to heaven. How come it is not so? Why is not everyone buying in? They can't be all crazy or totally wrong. You would think that God would have mercy on all his creation. Why does He need to play games?

Short answer. God does not play games. Men do. In some cases, a big money maker. How often, have I heard "Give to God", or when you're giving to your church, you are giving to God. I guess, in some cases, God likes to drive Cadillacs and Mercedes Benzes, tailored Armani suits, expensive meals, trips, and likes to live in not only one, but many mansions, which would concur with the Bible passage:

John 14:2 (King James Version)
"In my Father's house are many mansions". (Hey, I can pull stuff out of the Bible, too, out of context...:)

Thankfully, there are legitimate organizations who do not use money for self-agrandizement, or for the Pastor to live the life of a millionnaire. One of the problems, however, is that both the legits, and crooks, use the same Bible passages to promote their faith. One must separate the social aspect of religion (quoting Bible, helping people in need, keeping out of trouble, leading a healthy life, feeling good, congregating with people of the same faith, etc.), and the true path to enlightenment. One does not necessarily lead to the other.

Posted 6/8/2008 2:40 PM by richardj7 - - reply

@missycarl - Hagin, Coplin, Myer, et al. no doubt cause lots of Christians to stumble in their faith because of their materialism. I am 99% sure they are believers, nobody will know this side of heaven. They are so full of pride, it makes me sick to think of talking to them. Believers can have wealth and posessions, but I think the difference is that of attitude and priorities. Wouldn't it be AWESOME to see the rich man who did become a believer who gave it all away in order to serve God? It has happened countless times in history, and just as AWESOME as when God saves a hopeless meth addict off the streets.

@garyfong1 - Don't confuse the business of evalgelism (which is of man) with the business of saving souls (from God). The amazing thing is that today God uses evangelists to bear witness to the truth in spite of their larger than life, cult-like personas. The most effective and inspiring Christian leaders and evangelists that I know you have never met, and its no surprise you don't know their names. I am as literal as you can find in Bible interpretation, but to be honest the craft of Biblical interpretation has to be 1.) Literal, 2.) Contextual 3.) Grammatical and 4.) Historical. Also, what's a preacher or evangelist without faith in Christ, Gary? You cannot impart what you don't posssess, and the "Lie" would only be embarassing to yourself if you did such a thing without being the real deal.

Agrees with @richardj7 -

@opensourcephoto - Hey DJ. Nice to see you again! :) The greek word used here for needle in the original text is rhaphidos, a sewing needle, not a small gate within another gate as is sometimes suggested. The verse can be used as an analogy or taken literally, but either way you look at it, it serves to emphasize just how impossible it is for men with riches (see @richardj7's interpretation of "riches" above) to enter the kingdom of heaven unless God causes it to happen.

By the way, I didn't always used to be a Christian.

Posted 6/8/2008 3:26 PM by gmahler5th - - reply

First, DJ, thank you for your earliest comment, a Biblical reference that is completely appropriate :)

Second, gmahler5th, I have no idea what goes on in your mind, but while I consider G a close friend, confidant and a daily source of entertainment, at no time has he played a role in my fantasies. I'm sure that I can speak for Brian on that.

I do not envy G. Webster's dictionary defines envy as "painful or resentful awareness of an advantage enjoyed by another joined with a desire to possess the same advantage." IT also refers to jealousy. G's success has not pained me in anyway, nor do I resent him. I'd hope to think that other people feel the same. G is a kindhearted person who has worked hard using his intellect to get where he is. He wants nothing more to see those around him share the same success and does what he can to help them on their way. I can see no reason to resent someone like that.

I also think that there are times when certain Christians speak too much on things of which they know too little. Referencing scripture in a way in which it was obviously not intended, mentioning respected figures of faith as stumbling blocks, people who I am quite sure they have not had no actual contact with, saying that someone might not be able to become a believer, those are all prime examples.

Often times it's these Christians who do more harm then good, leaving the rest of us appearing inept and self-righteous. Yes, I said us. If actions speak louder than words, then what does it say when an individual must use so many to try to convince someone of something?

What does it say about Christians when they pass their judgement on leaders of their faith then vocalize it?

And personally, I think it would be far more appealing to see a wealthy man become a Christian and maintain his wealth or obtain more, why do Christians need to be poor? To prevent their fellow believers of accusing them of materialism? God forbid a Christian be successful and other Christians not speak ill of them.

I'm pretty sure that the Bible is pretty clear on judging others. Enough said.

As for me, I say role with the Church of the Eye of the Needle of the Happy Sky. You have a lot to impart, believer or otherwise. Evangelist is also defined as an enthusiastic advocate. Who says that an evengelist has to be evangelizing Christianity? So unless you state that you are something you are not, I see no lie involved :)

I'll support you but I'm not giving you my dough, lol.

Posted 6/8/2008 5:23 PM by Tiffy_girl_ohio - - reply

ALL of the bible is not to be interpreted literally but figurtively or symbolically. You have to have the Holy Spirit (3rd person of the trinity) inside you to help you interpret the bible and you cannot get the Holy Spirit until you become a born again Christian. An evangelist is a person who proclaims the good news of Christ which is He came to die for our sins and it is up to us to accept it or not.

No where does it say Christians have to be poor. Abraham was a wealthy man but became the father of many nations. And yet Solomon was very rich and he had the wrong attitude and look where it got him. He finally came to his spiritual senses before he died. It is all what your attitude is toward it. Christ was saying that people who are rich, trust in their riches because they really don't need anything and if riches and money are first in your life, it will be hard for you to give it all up if God asked you to, in order to follow Him or do whatever work He has for you. There is no use in trying to figure out the bible unless you have the Holy Spirit. Until then you are operating in spiritual darkness and cannot truly understand the things of Christ.

I do not believe the bible teaches the prosperity gospel.

Posted 6/8/2008 6:05 PM by lightinspiration - - reply

@Tiffy_girl_ohio - I "get" what you are saying Tiffany, and mostly agree. Gary is an inspiring read for me as well, and is one of the biggest reasons I even signed up for Xanga to begin with (see my blog) and don't hold anything at all against him. The only difference between you and me, perhaps besides our gender, is that you happen to know Gary personally and I don't.

Regarding the rest of your commentary on my post... For one, I'm not judging others (in the moral sense), and secondly all I was doing was providing as much of an opinion as everyone else here was doing, so why single me out? You say those guys rock, I say they are not my style. Tomato, Tomatoe.

Of course you can evangelize technology, political views and everything else, but look at the title of Gary's post. I was simply playing along like everyone else :)

Posted 6/8/2008 6:07 PM by gmahler5th - - reply

Comedian? Yes. Evangelist...hmmm...not so sure about that!

Hey -- off topic -- do you ever watch Ice Road Truckers on the History Channel? Several of the drivers are from Kelowna -- tonight was the premier of the 2nd season and they showed some footage of the drivers in and around Kelowna.

Posted 6/8/2008 6:15 PM by bluesky93

- - reply

@lightinspiration: You say that you have to have the Holy Spirit inside you to help you interpret the bible, and you cannot get the Holy Spirit until you become a born again Christian. Interesting conclusion. Let's look at some of the alleged powers that come from being filled with the Holy Spirit:

1) Wisdom; (People can attain wisdom without being born again. The Buddhists call it "enlightenment" or real knowledge - which is actually knowing that all is illusion)
2) Eyes illuminated to the Word of God; (That's possible. I'm thinking of that doughnut shape light that appears in the "third eye", the Christ portal to the presence of God - i.e. to nothingness as far as the mind is concerned.)
3) Knowledge revealed to them; (What knowledge? Useful to whom? Believed by whom?)
4) Supernatural faith; (What is that? Faith in the supernatural? Like believing in ghosts?)
5) Power to Perform Miracles; (I've yet to see or hear someone who had done it under a controlled context. I'm afraid hearsay, and people wanting to believe that are used to report such things, are at best a little biased.)
6) Ability to Heal or Experience Healing; (Lots of people claim being able to do that, however it's never in a measurable context, so hard evidence is lacking. There are some cases of mind over matter, where people have actually gotten better by self-healing. The mind's power is not fully known. Example, like a grandmother lifting a car to free her grandson. Some would call it a miracle, others strong determination.)

or causing the believer to:

7) Feel the presence of God; (Very subjective. The mind, which is the seat of emotion, can be quite deceiving)
8) Feel powerful sensations through the body; (Lots of non born-again Christians feel that in their lifetime, including me)
9) Overwhelming sense of joy; (Most people experience that at least a few times in their life, without being born-again.)
10) Be made an "apostle" (sent one, missionary); (Are Mormons, born-again Christians? Are Jesuits, born-again Christians?)
11) Be called as a Pastor/Holy person; (Not a born-again Christian thing - lots of Hindus are referred to as "holy", Buddhists, too.)
12) Have the ability to teach from the Word of God; (How can you teach from the Word of God, unless the only thing you do, is to say nothing? The Word of God is not words. If there is a devil, then, words come from it, to confuse the minds of people, if anything.)

13) Be able to lead and administer; (Not a born-again Christian thing.)
15) Have a knack for seeing needs and extending mercy; (Not a born-again Christian thing)
16) Give; (Many non religious people give)
17) Use one's life to help others; (Mother Theresa is not a born-again Christian. She got it right the first time)
19) Consistently open one's home in hospitality; (Not a Holy Spirit exclusive)
* Love and forgive supernaturally; (Not sure what it means, but lots on not born-again Christians have forgiven.)
* Evangelize (speak/spread forth the Good News); (Usually an ego impulse that thinks it has some kind of superiority over others. Most of the phrases are repetitions of predecessors. We're only repeating what we've read or heard - including me. Does it make it right? Nope.)

* Engage in Glossolalia, commonly called "speaking in tongues"; (Give me hyperventilation, catchy music or chanting, and I'll speak "tongues". If we went a bit deeper, we may find that this is a psychological problem.)
* Engage in Xenoglossy or Religious Xenoglossia, speaking in an unlearned language; (The mind can pick up stuff unconsciously. But, then, you would need someone present to know which unlearned language is all about. I could be in a group, and suddenly pretend that I'm speaking Serbo-Croat, and no one would know better.)

* Raise the dead; (OK, some people pretend they were raised from the dead, like Tim. Anybody know someone who actually raised someone from the dead - let's say somebody that has been buried for 3 days, at least? The "dead", for me are living people who have not been enlightened. Once they are enlightened, then they have been raised from the dead - meaning - dead to the knowledge of God or Unicity - not the God everyone is peddling around.)

* Interpret different tongues; (I can interpret anything. Does it mean I'm right? No. Besides are our interpretations that much different than our predecessors? Are we quoting someone we read or heard? Most times, yes. There is nothing really original under the sun.)
* Hear God speak; (That's where most of the religions started, and where people were set apart.) I would concede, though that if you were to hear a humongous roaring, like a waterfall inside of yourself, then I may concede that God is speaking to you. However, if he uses words, I would be careful.)

* Exorcise Evil Spirits that possess a person; (Catholic Priests have been doing this for centuries, including killing people to make sure they are exorcises. Not a born-again Christian exclusive.)
* Have a strong, personal connection to God; (Subjective. One can deceive him/herself about that.)
* Be able to prophesy; (I've not seen a prophecy being accomplished in a definitive manner. There are all kinds of signs, and the mind has the ability to pick & choose those that may "confirm" a prophecy.)

* Have visions; (I've had visions. Everybody has visions. Once you have too many, they sorta give you pills, and keep you in a private room, with padded walls.)
* Discern spiritual, physical and mental conditions; (Doctors for physical, psychiatrists for mental, and spiritual, well...who can really tell?)
* See angels and demons at work. (I hope it’s to clean up the highways or give food to the poor. Otherwise, we might be involved in a civil war between the two, as was claimed.)

Jesus did not come to "die for our sins". If anything, he got crucified for socio-political reasons. He got some powerful people peeved off. Maybe he used that fatal incident to make his point, and sacrificed himself to emerge from the crowd, to attract attention, where otherwise, he may have just been another sect leader in the Jewish faith. There were a lot, then. He needed to distinguish his from the others, so he sacrificed himself. There is nothing like persecution to fortify the faithful, and attract new adherents.

We must separate Jesus, the passionate man, with the Christ - i.e. a state of Grace that he attained by practicing some meditation techniques and fasts that he probably learned from travelers coming from the Far East. The Middle East was a hub of commerce. Who knows, he may have traveled there himself, since there is a big chunk of his story that is missing. Anybody ever wondered why such a gap? When he came back to his town, he had to adapt what he learned so that it would make sense to his Jewish followers. Probably not an easy task. That's why a lot of the stuff written is cryptic.

However, while he was here, Jesus came to show us the way to get out of our original sin, i.e. we have lost contact with God through being attracted to the physical matter. Souls wanted to enjoy physical matter through the senses and the physical body. Soul forgot where it came from, because life is a very realistic dream where you can feel joy and pain, just like actual dreaming seems true. But, this is only an illusion in a grand scale. This beats any game that has been invented so far. However, some of the simulators give an idea how realistic, virtual reality can be. Multiply that by a million times, and you have life on earth....so some people say.

Jesus pointed the finger to the way out. He's not the only one who has shown that in the past. People need reminders in at different times, in different countries. The problem is that people are falling in love with the messenger, rather than concentrating on the end-result, or what needs to be done. We have made a whole bunch of images, and we are in love with the images, and stories.

The second coming? In the mind. Not "out there" from rolling clouds, and chariots of fire. The rolling clouds, and chariots of fire are at the Christ portal, in the mind. For some people, it happened already. The portal has opened. Christ came through. The "Holy Spirit" pulled the person in, for the short space that needed to be crossed. The veils dropped. What was thought to be lost, in reality, was never lost. Just the thought that it was lost. It was there all the time. The only thing that needed to be dropped to see it was looking up, rather than looking down. Other religions have similar explanations, but use different words, and different names. You would see the similarities, if you bothered to study other mystical religions.

The "Devil" is keeping people apart, and close-minded to their own religion or faith, and making them claim that they hold the absolute truth - trying to convert the other to their way of thinking. As long as we have that, we will have wars, misunderstanding, and separation. No religion holds the "one key". They all hold some truth. Now, what about if there was sharing of knowledge? What could happen, then?

Posted 6/8/2008 7:55 PM by richardj7 - - reply

Hey Nate (shot shot)

... here we go again. Don't you feel like every few months we go through this again, only it's with a different person? The scripture quoting thing just gets me every time. :)

Posted 6/8/2008 8:21 PM by missycarl - - reply

Yeah it's pretty much turning out to be a big joke, huh... Why do we take this (or anything) seriously, anyways?

Posted 6/8/2008 8:35 PM by gmahler5th - - reply

Of course, if you interpret it literally, you have to adjust the Shekel for inflation.

Someone do the math...

I think Gary is already divine... I mean, he was on TV at Glazer's in Seattle yesterday, healing the harsh light heathens with his soft glow, smooth patter and foxy acolytes.

Posted 6/8/2008 8:44 PM by fjblau - - reply

ps: Richard... I love your posts. Your intellect, spiritual curiosity and willingness to explain the things I usually just toss off jabs about are wonderful.

Much of what you say captures my own spirital path and I am always thrilled to read what you write.

Posted 6/8/2008 8:57 PM by fjblau - - reply

What's Glazers?

Posted 6/8/2008 9:01 PM by garyfong1

- - reply

The largest camera store in Seattle. (http://www.glazerscamera.com)

Your Lightsphere and WhaleTail videos were playing right over the sales counter. I was there getting one of those Lensbaby things for my son for his 18th birthday.

Posted 6/8/2008 9:21 PM by fjblau - - reply

Thanks fjblau. I'm contributing to Gary's traffic flow...:)

One thing, though. Although I like to question everything, I don't take it completely seriously, knowing full well that no word explanation can explain THE TRUTH. Some words can give some hint, and point in some general direction, even inspire. But, they ain't IT. Some religions say "Lose what you know...and KNOW!" That includes dogma.

I still have intellectual curiosity. I please my ego, once in a while...:) I've studied the process with which people create their belief system, and faith. I've studied the process of memory and how witnesses can put innocent people in jail. There is a definite stage where memory embellishes, distorts, and creates new memories out of association with old ones. When that happens, people recall things that were simply not there. By repeating something often enough, they end up believing it with all their heart, even if it means putting an innocent person in jail for a long time. So, you can imagine how stories can take a life of their own, especially through word to ear traditions, time, gossip, translations, adaptations, censorship, etc.. It's simply fascinating. They are kept alive by spaced repetition.

I've also studied clinical Ericksonian Hypnosis and how people can actually be transformed by a practitioner speaking directly to their unconscious, by-passing the critical mindset of the conscious. We see a little of that in stage hypnosis, where people go along with doing crazy things in front of strangers. No one can really explain why that occurs. But is works. I've recognized a lot of those methods - more sophisticated than stage hypnosis - used by preachers, politicians, spin doctors, and salespeople. People can be manipulated, and they have been, and will continue to be, intelligent people, too. It is relatively easy to self-hynotize oneself into believing a lot of things.

Strength in numbers also gives a story credibiity. We know about the "group effect" in manifestations, where some people start breaking things, and looting. Alone, they would not do it. In a group, if some people start doing it, others follow like sheep, losing their rational behavior to the irrational group.

If enough people believe in something, then some people think that it must be true. How could so many people be so wrong?, they surmise. Then, in order to validate & strengthen their choice, they will meet often enough with other people of like mind, and censor any type of information that would go against what they believe as a group, even though it may be useful or practical to know. We see extreme cases in sects. What legitimizes them is their number, and sometimes the number of celebrities endorsing such organizations. Some major fundamental religions/faiths are not that far off, either.

I wish to live long enough for people to realize how different faiths have set us apart, and that it is time to study and try to understand other faiths to see the common thread. Once the common thread would be realized, people would no longer see differences in others, and the nature of faith would probably change in a flash.

John 18:5 KJV: "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." (Return to our true nature before our physical awareness of physical creation). Self was one with God. No duality, then. Our fall came with our seeing of differences or believing that we are detached from Him, when in reality we are not. We just imagine we are. Actually, we need do nothing. Absolute nothingness! Otherwise, we just fumble in the dark, and get on other people' nerves...:)

Posted 6/8/2008 11:08 PM by richardj7 - - reply

... or purported great strength in numbers. Richard - the book I'm reading about the Evangelical nation is incredible. So was your comment.

Posted 6/9/2008 2:22 AM by garyfong1

- - reply

@missycarl -

I have to disagree with the original post, and I think probably the person writing it would agree with me if she thought about it. God sees things very differently than we do. We humans can only look on the outside, and we judge/evaluate accordingly. However, God is not limited in that way. Someone else pointed out that ALL believers are awesome. That is true in a sense, but not completely accurate. For, it is clear from scripture that there is a way in which the Lord will dole out reward and recognition for a "job well-done" to his children. Not all have done as well as others, nor have represented His character as well. As for being "rich", God exalted the widow who gave a tiny amount by everyone's standards, but she gave all that she had, and God saw that it was true sacrifice. Scripture describes the characteristics of character that God might consider "awesome". There is too much to write about that here. But, suffice it to say that God is near to the lowly, the broken, the rejected of this world, and His economy is different than man's standard.

I am sure Gary has as much opportunity to be an "awesome" believer as any, but his belief in himself, and his estimation of his abilities and capabilities would prevent him, at this point, from giving God all the credit. An awesome believer would admit and know that it not them that are awesome, but God in and through them. Everything that they might accomplish would be motivated by bringing glory, not to themselves, but to God.

I cannot judge whether all those people that Missy mentioned are motivated by getting rich, or motivated by honoring the Savior that bled for them. The bottom line that each person needs to reason with and on which each will be judged, is what and how they dealt with the very real death of God's only Son on their behalf. If they have been called, chosen, and brought to faith by God, then they know that they will always be undeserving of heaven, no matter what. The proposition that evangelists are nothing more than cunning businessmen is flat-out untrue.

We who believe are commanded to bring the message of the free gospel of grace to any and all that might listen. There are and will be false prophets, and opportunists. However, that does not alleviate the need for each person to answer the question that their own sin poses. Is your sin forgiven? Or not?

We go through life - and either come to recognize by God's mercy, that we need forgiveness, or we go through life thinking that we deserve to be worshiped and don't need forgiveness from anyone. God sent His son to die for the beggar in the streets, and the King on the throne. As Bob Dylan put it "You've Got to Serve Somebody".

His Forgiven Flawed messenger,

Dgrove21

Posted 6/9/2008 4:39 AM by dgrove21 - - reply

dgrove21 - I can't speak for the original poster, and I maybe wrong, but I think that she was referring to Gary's passion for life, if Gary would turn that same passion and drive toward loving and serving God, then imagine what he could do. If Gary ever became a Christian, I don't think he would be a lukewarm Christian.

Posted 6/9/2008 5:27 AM by TimRayPhoto - - reply

Since the Middle Ages commentators on Matt. 19: 23, concerning the "eye of the needle," thought it might refer to a small gate or door inside a larger gate in the wall of Jerusalem. Also, many of the homes of the biblical period had these smaller gates inside the larger main gate. A camel could get down on its knees and crawl through with significant effort. Medieval biblical commentators argued that the point of the passage was that a rich man could indeed enter the kingdom of God, if he got down on his knees before Him. Archaeologically speaking, no gate has ever been found in Jerusalem that was called "Eye of the Needle" or "Needle's Eye." So here's the problem: Did the term "Eye of the Needle," as applied to any gate, precede the teaching of Jesus or follow afterwards? Did the popularity of the term come about after Jesus' teaching? This would seem to be the case with the medevial bible commentators. Bible readers must to be careful of pseudo-archaeology. So what are we left with? A literal interpretation - that the needle is indeed a tiny sewing needle.

As great as the image of salvation is of a camel on it's knees crawling through a tiny gate, I think it diminishes the impact of Jesus' words. The real point of the passage is not that you can squirm your way through the gate on your own with a little help from God, but that it is impossible for any person to enter the kingdom of heaven, apart from God's saving grace, just as it is impossible for anyone to squeeze themself through the tiny eye of a needle. This goes not only for the rich, but also for the poor. So, to my way of thinking, it means that material wealth does not prohibit one from the kingdom of heaven, but it can be a hinderance if the wealth owns the man and not vica-versa (like the rich young man in the passage).

On another note, as far as judging goes, we are not to judge another's salvation, as only God knows who will be among the saved. But, on-the-other-hand, as Paul tells us, we have a responsibility to judge a person's fruits, that is, what they produce from their life, i.e., do they lie, murder, commit adultery, steal, etc. or do they show love, patience, kindness, goodness, self control, etc. We are not to judge another's salvation, but we are to judge immoral behavior. This is basically the theological foundation of law in western civilization.

A theologian once said: "Beware of the theology of the first glance." In other words, if you want to understand scripture, you really have to work hard and seriously study it to get beyond the superficial first read. Add to that our post-modern secular culture, with its philosophical predispositions, and it makes the scriptures even harder to comprehend. A lot of people give up if they don't get something the first time they read it. And even when you read a passage so many times that you memorized it, it can still be misunderstood. Lord knows I've been aggitated often enough at not understanding a passage, but have learned to put a troublesome passage on the back burner awhile and come back to it later with a fresh perspective. As Paul says, now we see through the glass dimly....

lee

Posted 6/9/2008 7:17 AM by Larkinimages - - reply

According to the following link, various translations may have been wrongly done out of context. "The Aramaic word gamla means camel, a large rope and a beam (note: one or the others). The meaning of the word is determined by its context. If the word riding or burden occurs then gamla means a camel, but when the eye of a needle is mentioned gamla more correctly means a rope. There is no connection anywhere in Aramaic speech or literature between camel and needle, but there is a definite connection between rope and needle." http://www.eyeoftheneedle.net/Church%20Traditions/eye_of_a_needle.htm

Jesus often used examples or analogies in context where he was preaching.

There is also a correlation between being rich and blessed by God in the days of the Apostles (in some cases, even today). When Jesus mentioned that rich men may have a hard time going to the Kingdom of God, the apostles got confused, because they associated being blessed by God with having material wealth, while the poor were not so blessed by God. But, Jesus talked about the "wealth of the Kingdom of God" which would leave material wealth pale in comparison. So being rich or being poor, made no difference, and Jesus wanted to put things in perspective.

The Babylonian Talmud applies the aphorism to unthinkable thoughts. "They do not show a man a palm tree of gold, nor an elephant going through the eye of a needle."

A Midrash on the Song of Songs uses the phrase to speak of God's willingness and ability beyond comparison, to accomplish the salvation of a sinner: "The Holy One said, open for me a door as big as a needle's eye and I will open for you a door through which may enter tents and [camels?]"

In the Buddhist and Hindu Tantrism the third eye corresponds to the ajna chakra, which is located above the nose on the forehead. Practitioners claim, that as they pass through, they see a blinding light, hear the deafening sound of a large waterfall (sometimes referred as the Word of God or AUM - the sound of all creation). Some refer to it as the Christ center, the portal to the Kingdom of God.

In that context, I've heard "needle", meaning a very small passage in front of which the body must kneel (abandon the physical world in favor of the spiritual) before it can pass through. The physical world is identified with the physical body as well as mental activity. By kneeling to pass through the gate - or leaving behind anything that if of the physical or material world - one can enter the Kingdom of God, or whatever other reference is made to describe that spiritual BEING.

Rapture - being sucked in the Kingdom of God - then occurs, because men can come to the gate, but cannot physically cross it out of their own will. Before crossing over, however, many visions can be seen, including that of angels or other entities, as well as powers that can be bestowed upon mortals - but which are only traps into which men can fall and be stuck with, instead of going beyond them. Jesus was tempted by the Devil many times: in the desert, on the parapet of the temple (not necessarily the physical building), and on a mountain overlooking the kingdoms of the world, to use such powers: (Matt. 4:1-11).

Comments by Saint Teresa of Ávila about seeing spiritual beings with the intellectual mind:
I saw an angel close by me, on my left side, in bodily form. This I am not accustomed to see, unless very rarely. Though I have visions of angels frequently, yet I see them only by an intellectual vision, such as I have spoken of before. It was our Lord's will that in this vision I should see the angel in this wise."

The kernel of Teresa's mystical thought throughout all her writings is the ascent of the soul in four stages (Autobiography, Chs. 10-22):

The first, or "heart's devotion," is that of devout contemplation or concentration, the withdrawal of the soul from without and specially the devout observance of the passion of Christ and penitence.

The second is the "devotion of peace," in which at least the human will is lost in that of God by virtue of a charismatic, supernatural state given of God, while the other faculties, such as memory, reason, and imagination, are not yet secure from worldly distraction. While a partial distraction is due to outer performances such as repetition of prayers and writing down spiritual things, yet the prevailing state is one of quietude. (NOTE: repetition of prayers and writing down spiritual things - including all religious books are partial distractions).

The "devotion of union" is not only a supernatural but an essentially ecstatic state. Here there is also absorption of the reason in God, and only the memory and imagination are left to ramble. This state is characterized by a blissful peace, a sweet slumber of at least the higher soul faculties, a conscious rapture in the love of God. (NOTE: this is the beginning of the end of mental activity that prevents true union with God).

The fourth is the "devotion of ecstasy or rapture," a passive state, in which the consciousness of being in the body disappears (2 Corinthians 12:2-3). Sense activity ceases; memory and imagination are also absorbed in God or intoxicated. Body and spirit are in the throes of a sweet, happy pain, alternating between a fearful fiery glow, a complete impotence and unconsciousness, and a spell of strangulation, intermitted sometimes by such an ecstatic flight that the body is literally lifted into space. This after half an hour is followed by a reactionary relaxation of a few hours in a swoon-like weakness, attended by a negation of all the faculties in the union with God. From this the subject awakens in tears; it is the climax of mystical experience, productive of the trance. (NOTE: the true meaning of "I die daily". And, we can only mentally or physically experience the effects of that union, coming out, not while BEING in.)

Personally, I think she explains those spiritual stages very well. I would say that most traditional religions are somewhere before stage 1 and getting closer to stage 2.

Her book, "The Interior Castle" where she talks about the 7 mansions. The Interior Castle is divided into seven mansions, each level describing a step to get closer to God. (Jesus said, John 14:2: "In my Father's house are many mansions (dwelling places); if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a mansion (a dwelling place) for you." Then, John 14:6: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." The 6th mansion for Christ state, and 7th mention for total union with God. Sahasrara for the Hindus. Sahasrara is positioned above the head or at the top of it and it has 1000 petals, which are arranged in 20 layers each of them with 50 petals.

Sahasrara chakra symbolizes detachment from illusion; an essential element in obtaining supramental higher consciousness of the truth that one is all and all is one.

Often referred as thousand-petaled lotus, it is said to be the most subtle chakra in the system, relating to pure consciousness, and it is from this chakra that all the other chakras emanate. When a yogi is able to raise his or her kundalini, energy of consciousness, up to this point, the state of samadhi, or union with God, is experienced.

According to Saint Theresa, the first mansions begin with souls in a state of grace, but the souls are surrounded by sin and only starting to perfect themselves. The second mansions are also called the Mansions of the Practice of Prayer because the soul seeks to advance through the castle by religious practice. The Mansions of Exemplary Life are the third mansions and they are characterized by a love governed by reason and an outwardly model life. The fourth mansions are a departure from the soul actively acquiring what it gains as God increases his role. The fifth mansions contain incipient Union in which the soul prepares itself to receive gifts from God. If the fifth mansions can be compared to a betrothal, the sixth mansions can be compared to lovers. The soul spends increasing amounts of time torn between favors from God and from outside afflictions (NOTE: what Jesus went through to become a Christ, also where things as "raised from the dead", and (real) miracles can become power traps that prevent souls from progressing, something that Jesus did not yield to in the end). The soul achieves clarity in prayer and a spiritual marriage with God in the seventh mansions.

Fascinating?

Posted 6/9/2008 11:49 AM by richardj7 - - reply

I don't feel like I am "flawed" nor do I feel like I need to be worshipped. I think that I am here to learn, and I think that closing my mind to all possibilities is a great way to stop learning.

So if being a Christian and becoming a super tele-evangelist and making beaucoup bucks and flying in a jet is a possibility - then can somebody tell me why I shouldn't give it a go?

Posted 6/9/2008 1:33 PM by garyfong1

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Because some of us believe you are a better person than that. :)

Posted 6/9/2008 2:07 PM by fjblau - - reply

Authenticity. If you have it, the sky's the limit.

Posted 6/9/2008 2:08 PM by richardj7 - - reply

Hey Gary, for cryin' out loud, if you aren't a Christian, you would just be another hypocrite out there selling something you didn't believe in. Stick with selling what you believe in! If your Lightsphere (or theology for that matter) was junk, people would find out you were just another con man, and your reputaion would be trashed even if you made "beaucoup bucks." Then you would be just another capitalist without integrity, chasing the almighty dollar, without much of a soul. You know, "What does it avail a man to gain a fortune and loose his soul?" I hate to evoke my dad here, but he used to tell me to "Sell what you believe in, and sell it with integrity." He used to add that integrity is the only thing you will take out of this world, so guard it closely. That is how you get ahead Gary, just like you aparently have done with your wedding albums, the Lightsphere, and your other projects.

Wow, I feel like I'm being way too serious for your retorical question, but you asked....

Lee

Posted 6/9/2008 3:03 PM by Larkinimages - - reply

of course the question was rhetorical.

Posted 6/10/2008 4:48 PM by garyfong1

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It's not hard for the rich to get into heaven. It's just an analogy. That's all. No literal sense there whatsoever. The bible is a piece of poetry, lots of methaphors, anaologies and the like.

Posted 6/20/2008 7:12 AM by pbjphoto - - reply

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